2022 pecking order speculation

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.

Who comes out on top in the new regs?

Mercedes
117
26%
Red Bull
101
23%
Ferrari
123
28%
McLaren
60
13%
Aston Martin
9
2%
Williams
8
2%
Haas
8
2%
Alfa Romeo
1
0%
Alpine
18
4%
Alpha Tauri
1
0%
 
Total votes: 446

basti313
basti313
25
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

henry wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:51 am
Neno wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 1:29 am
Low rake aero concept from 2014-21 has nothing to do with possible 2022 low aero concept. Floor, venturi tunnels, no bargeboards, completely different front and rear wing design. Basically everything what makes car produce downforce is being created completely different way.
However the understanding of the suspension used to keep the low rake platform at a consistent orientation has not changed. Although some of the components used to do it are now no longer legal.
If I understand the concept correctly the Merc had a long wheelbase to free up space for the complicated barge boards. The whole concept was build around these barge boards and the brake ducts. I think the suspension does not play the main role.
As the barge boards are forbidden a flat, high wheelbase concept is simply not possible anymore.

But as Merc mastered the squat like no one else when they went higher a bit, I do not see a reason why they should have any problems with the suspension on a car with a higher rear end.

User avatar
henry
308
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

basti313 wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:59 am
henry wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:51 am
Neno wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 1:29 am
Low rake aero concept from 2014-21 has nothing to do with possible 2022 low aero concept. Floor, venturi tunnels, no bargeboards, completely different front and rear wing design. Basically everything what makes car produce downforce is being created completely different way.
However the understanding of the suspension used to keep the low rake platform at a consistent orientation has not changed. Although some of the components used to do it are now no longer legal.
If I understand the concept correctly the Merc had a long wheelbase to free up space for the complicated barge boards. The whole concept was build around these barge boards and the brake ducts. I think the suspension does not play the main role.
As the barge boards are forbidden a flat, high wheelbase concept is simply not possible anymore.

But as Merc mastered the squat like no one else when they went higher a bit, I do not see a reason why they should have any problems with the suspension on a car with a higher rear end.

My personal observation is that Mercedes have mastered the ability to manage compliance at low speeds with stability at high with relatively reduced suspension movement compared with the high rake cars. I think this will be a key requirement of 2022.

A caveat on that is that the 2022 suspensions will be much simpler and it’s possible that Mercedes’ strength lay in the complexities of the hydraulics and cunning damper valving which are banned/restricted.

And you’re right, they were able to repurpose their suspension to run at higher rake when the change in aero regs required it. I think this shows a deep understanding of the relationship between aero and suspension.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 am
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

henry wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 2:12 pm
basti313 wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:59 am
henry wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:51 am


However the understanding of the suspension used to keep the low rake platform at a consistent orientation has not changed. Although some of the components used to do it are now no longer legal.
If I understand the concept correctly the Merc had a long wheelbase to free up space for the complicated barge boards. The whole concept was build around these barge boards and the brake ducts. I think the suspension does not play the main role.
As the barge boards are forbidden a flat, high wheelbase concept is simply not possible anymore.

But as Merc mastered the squat like no one else when they went higher a bit, I do not see a reason why they should have any problems with the suspension on a car with a higher rear end.

My personal observation is that Mercedes have mastered the ability to manage compliance at low speeds with stability at high with relatively reduced suspension movement compared with the high rake cars. I think this will be a key requirement of 2022.

A caveat on that is that the 2022 suspensions will be much simpler and it’s possible that Mercedes’ strength lay in the complexities of the hydraulics and cunning damper valving which are banned/restricted.

And you’re right, they were able to repurpose their suspension to run at higher rake when the change in aero regs required it. I think this shows a deep understanding of the relationship between aero and suspension.
Another curve ball for everyone is the maximum offset for the push/pull rod(*) and steering arm from the hub (now down to 50mm). All of the teams will now need to re-look at how they generate the low speed turn-in that the big offsets really help with.

I very much doubt that anyone will turn up with pull-rod front suspension, but I can hope!!!
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

User avatar
dans79
245
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

henry wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 2:12 pm
A caveat on that is that the 2022 suspensions will be much simpler and it’s possible that Mercedes’ strength lay in the complexities of the hydraulics and cunning damper valving which are banned/restricted.
They Haven't run hydraulic springs in quite a while.

Towards the end of 2019 they experimented with Belleville washers (first seen in singapore), I assume because they had a strong believe hydraulic suspensions components would be banned in 2021(announced in Austin if memory serves.)

You can see an article on it here. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/gary- ... 7/4988177/

You can see them fitted to the W11 in preseason testing here.
https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewt ... 10#p889610
Image


You can see them fitted to the W12 here.
https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewt ... 18#p989718
Image
183 103 103 7

toraabe
toraabe
12
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:42 am

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

Jambier wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:07 am
The worst scenario would be Mercedes winning again.

Formula 1 need change, it always have change the rule to end some domination.

So Mercedes is « supposed » to lose. If not this is formula 1 losing.

Let’s see what the third top team can do: Ferrari. There is no reason for them to be behind the two other top team, so they have no choice but to win 2022
Alpine. They can surprise. Wolf has admitted. Alonso has driven sportscar. They are using the same tyres as f1 is moving to. He has valuable info regarding how to setup the car. With their new engine in which at last has the same layout as Merc and Honda they could be at the very front.

Neno
Neno
-29
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 12:41 am

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

henry wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:51 am
Neno wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 1:29 am
Low rake aero concept from 2014-21 has nothing to do with possible 2022 low aero concept. Floor, venturi tunnels, no bargeboards, completely different front and rear wing design. Basically everything what makes car produce downforce is being created completely different way.
However the understanding of the suspension used to keep the low rake platform at a consistent orientation has not changed. Although some of the components used to do it are now no longer legal.
I didnt read much about suspension. But any shenanigans used by teams to being "clever" with suspension for any hint of aero gains I assume will be banned. FIA doesnt want any of that heat. Because that part is actually really complicated to make it work, it can lead to not only safety ignorance, but teams could literally spend too much time and money for minimum gains.

FIA not even two or so years ago banned Renault's some kind of "cheat" system (‘pre-set lap distance-dependent brake bias adjustment system’) which didnt even benefit aero, back when Force India protested.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
495
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

Jambier wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:07 am
The worst scenario would be Mercedes winning again.

Formula 1 need change, it always have change the rule to end some domination.

So Mercedes is « supposed » to lose. If not this is formula 1 losing.

Let’s see what the third top team can do: Ferrari. There is no reason for them to be behind the two other top team, so they have no choice but to win 2022
So it's not supposed to be sport where the best team wins? But then I think you are implying that something is fundamentally wrong if Mercedes win again, but then again! you also say Ferrari has no reason to be behind Mecedes! So it seems you are not attributing Merc's past advantage to money or politics. So now I'm curious what you attribute it to, then.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

User avatar
Jambier
4
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:02 am
Location: France

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:26 am
Jambier wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:07 am
The worst scenario would be Mercedes winning again.

Formula 1 need change, it always have change the rule to end some domination.

So Mercedes is « supposed » to lose. If not this is formula 1 losing.

Let’s see what the third top team can do: Ferrari. There is no reason for them to be behind the two other top team, so they have no choice but to win 2022
So it's not supposed to be sport where the best team wins? But then I think you are implying that something is fundamentally wrong if Mercedes win again, but then again! you also say Ferrari has no reason to be behind Mecedes! So it seems you are not attributing Merc's past advantage to money or politics. So now I'm curious what you attribute it to, then.
- Yes but you know that it is not "only" a sport, it is a show, and the governing body likes to have pecking order change to have good stories and attract the public.
One team winning all during 20 years can only bore the fans and hurt F1, especially if there is no competitor (like 2020)

- So for the good health of F1, there is this need of another team finally wining and putting and end to Mercedes domination.

- Mercedes did a very good job to prepare for 2014 and then was unbeatable for years, I have no objection on that, but this is simply the time for a change.

Csmith1980
Csmith1980
0
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:00 pm

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

Jambier wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:08 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:26 am
Jambier wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:07 am
The worst scenario would be Mercedes winning again.

Formula 1 need change, it always have change the rule to end some domination.

So Mercedes is « supposed » to lose. If not this is formula 1 losing.

Let’s see what the third top team can do: Ferrari. There is no reason for them to be behind the two other top team, so they have no choice but to win 2022
So it's not supposed to be sport where the best team wins? But then I think you are implying that something is fundamentally wrong if Mercedes win again, but then again! you also say Ferrari has no reason to be behind Mecedes! So it seems you are not attributing Merc's past advantage to money or politics. So now I'm curious what you attribute it to, then.
- Yes but you know that it is not "only" a sport, it is a show, and the governing body likes to have pecking order change to have good stories and attract the public.
One team winning all during 20 years can only bore the fans and hurt F1, especially if there is no competitor (like 2020)

- So for the good health of F1, there is this need of another team finally wining and putting and end to Mercedes domination.

- Mercedes did a very good job to prepare for 2014 and then was unbeatable for years, I have no objection on that, but this is simply the time for a change.
Sport doesn’t work like that, you don’t see football changing the “pecking order” when one team dominates, same goes for for virtually every other sport on the planet too.

DChemTech
DChemTech
36
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 am
Location: Delft, NL

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

Csmith1980 wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:20 pm

Sport doesn’t work like that, you don’t see football changing the “pecking order” when one team dominates, same goes for for virtually every other sport on the planet too.
Unfortunately that is true, but just like F1, football hasn't really been a sport for a long time now. It's a wallet size competition. At least F1 is taking action against that by virtue of a budget cap and resetting the playing field with new regulations; of course that can again lead to a dominating team, but at least this time it should be because the winning team did the best job with the resources allowed, not because they had most resources available. Now just to hope that the FIA writes a clear and stable rurulebook rather than changing regulations on the fly, and we might actually be well on the way back to having a sport.

User avatar
Big Tea
88
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

Jambier wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:08 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:26 am
Jambier wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:07 am
The worst scenario would be Mercedes winning again.

Formula 1 need change, it always have change the rule to end some domination.

So Mercedes is « supposed » to lose. If not this is formula 1 losing.

Let’s see what the third top team can do: Ferrari. There is no reason for them to be behind the two other top team, so they have no choice but to win 2022
So it's not supposed to be sport where the best team wins? But then I think you are implying that something is fundamentally wrong if Mercedes win again, but then again! you also say Ferrari has no reason to be behind Mecedes! So it seems you are not attributing Merc's past advantage to money or politics. So now I'm curious what you attribute it to, then.
- Yes but you know that it is not "only" a sport, it is a show, and the governing body likes to have pecking order change to have good stories and attract the public.
One team winning all during 20 years can only bore the fans and hurt F1, especially if there is no competitor (like 2020)

- So for the good health of F1, there is this need of another team finally wining and putting and end to Mercedes domination.

- Mercedes did a very good job to prepare for 2014 and then was unbeatable for years, I have no objection on that, but this is simply the time for a change.
But, as you point out yourself, Mercedes is doing what they are supposed to do.
The reason they have been dominant is because no other team have done as good a job.
That is of course with the exception of Red Bull this year, which only goes to demonstrate that it it possible to do.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
dans79
245
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

DChemTech wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:31 pm
Csmith1980 wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:20 pm

Sport doesn’t work like that, you don’t see football changing the “pecking order” when one team dominates, same goes for for virtually every other sport on the planet too.
Unfortunately that is true, but just like F1, football hasn't really been a sport for a long time now. It's a wallet size competition. At least F1 is taking action against that by virtue of a budget cap and resetting the playing field with new regulations; of course that can again lead to a dominating team, but at least this time it should be because the winning team did the best job with the resources allowed, not because they had most resources available. Now just to hope that the FIA writes a clear and stable rurulebook rather than changing regulations on the fly, and we might actually be well on the way back to having a sport.
Every single major professional sport is like this. Even sports with rules intentionally designed to remove $$$ from the equation, still comes down to $$$ in the long run.
183 103 103 7

Csmith1980
Csmith1980
0
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:00 pm

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

DChemTech wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:31 pm
Csmith1980 wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:20 pm

Sport doesn’t work like that, you don’t see football changing the “pecking order” when one team dominates, same goes for for virtually every other sport on the planet too.
Unfortunately that is true, but just like F1, football hasn't really been a sport for a long time now. It's a wallet size competition. At least F1 is taking action against that by virtue of a budget cap and resetting the playing field with new regulations; of course that can again lead to a dominating team, but at least this time it should be because the winning team did the best job with the resources allowed, not because they had most resources available. Now just to hope that the FIA writes a clear and stable rurulebook rather than changing regulations on the fly, and we might actually be well on the way back to having a sport.
I personally don’t agree with what the FIA have had to do in order too “reset the playing field”. Not only do we now have a budget cap but the most prescriptive regulations ever seen in the sport and a performance handicap where the most successful teams lose wind tunnel/CFD time. That to me isn’t sport, it’s entertainment.

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 am
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

No, it’s an attempt to balance performance. Efficient development is to be encouraged.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

User avatar
El Scorchio
20
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: 2022 pecking order speculation

Post

Do we think they have enough scope in the new regs for teams to follow their own differing development trees and design philosophies (i.e. low rake vs high rake) or might they be a little too prohibitive?