FIA Thread

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AeroDynamic
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Re: FIA Thread

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Stu wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:49 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:35 pm
Toto can be cited saying “[we cannot be] held ransom by ad-hoc decisions in every field, be it technical or sport” it must be something about Brazil wing, if the rumour about Tombazis has credibility.
Items either pass the tests, or they don’t. Apparently the wing didn’t. That isn’t “ad-hoc”.
Team principals/personnel badgering the race director during a race is, and is not acceptable.
I do get that but he may be referring to a decision making process about a damaged item failing a test. He had hinted that the decision wasn’t consistent with past experiences. If it was so cut and dry with past experience, I doubt he would get so hung up on it or continue to argue it later.


Otherwise the only thing I can think of, is FIA changing the ‘21 regs twice in 2020 which did cost mercedes because they had a headstart on the first iteration and had to start over late in the season.

wesley123
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Re: FIA Thread

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Ryar wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:50 pm
It would be damning and further damage the already damaged reputation of FIA, if one team can barter the hiring or firing of FIA staff, regardless of the situation. It sets a precedence for that team and for other teams that, they can lodge a review against a FIA decision and agree to drop it by asking FIA to fire one of their own. FIA stewardship has always been questionable on many instances and if this one leads to a new precedence, FIA would be allowing teams to hold them for ransom. If the other teams watch this as mute spectators, it's only because they would be emboldended to play a similar trick when their turn comes.
Assuming this was Mercedes' doing, of course, on which there is no proof.
Masi's decision making has been questionable throughout the season and impacted both the protaganist teams, but allowing one to bay for his blood, is plain stupid on FIA's part. They can look at restructuring some of the gaps in the process and put better measures to improve decision making, instead of firing a member because there is someone unhappy about the outcome of a decision. FIA would come across as childish and toothless if they get bullied in this one.
If you had to explain your decisions every single time(and that isn't even an overreaction), how long would you get to keep your job?

Whatever way you want to look at it, he made a huge mess of things. And while there are a whole lot of things you can do to improve things, you have to wonder how credible Masi still is after the 2021 season. F1 suffered quite a decent amount of damage to their image due to his decision. The FIA suffered quite a decent amount of damage to their image because of his decision. Max' first title will always be doubted because of his decision. At some point someone cannot fill his role anymore because of such events, and we are well beyond that.
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west52keep64
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Re: FIA Thread

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They don't need to, and probably won't fire Masi. They can move him to a different role within the FIA, possibly as race director under a different championship. I think a positive change would be to have more than a single race director, and it's arguably more prudent considering there isn't an obvious stand-in should Masi have been incapacitated during the season.

The media seem to be desperate to spin a story out of the lack of updates from Hamilton, it seems to be bother the media more than anyone else! Funny really as 20 or so years ago you probably wouldn't have heard a peep from a driver during the off season. In the age of social media it seems we are entitled to constant updates, and a lack of them is considered abnormal.

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Re: FIA Thread

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I think 1 race director is fine, they will bring their personal ‘flavour’ to enforcing the rules but as long as this doesn’t change per race then the teams and drivers know exactly where they stand. I do wonder sometimes, when the ill-feeling faded, was Masi getting a nudge from someone higher up? Did he have some exec in his ear on that penultimate lap saying “don’t you dare let it finish under SC”?

His comms were just stupid to Toto, if that’s an insight into the man then I won’t miss him. But I think there’s more to the story.
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AeroDynamic
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Re: FIA Thread

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I dont think its as ambiguous as someone whispering in his ear from above. I think we saw it all unfold on tv in front of us: Horner was in his ear and he caved in, as he has consistently at other times. I think if Horner doesnt get on his case to have a racing lap, the race finishes under safety car.

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Big Tea
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Re: FIA Thread

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I agree it was Masi's fault, but where were his 'bosses' throughout the rest of the season when rules seemed to be flexible and were varied as he saw fit.
This is not objecting to him being flexible or changing rules, it is a good thing if done correctly, but somewhere along the way was he not askes 'why did you make this decision and what is it based on'?

Changing a rule is good if it is based on a need, and is done in a way as to be unambiguous, in particular not in a 'I am changing this from now' so suck it up manner.
An example is the moving the 'touchline' from the white line to any point elsewhere on track, and back from track to track.
Had his boss asked why it was done, and he replied 'pressure from the teams' I assume someone would have pointed out 'teams follow rules not make rules' so that in future he was prepared.

I think his decision in the last race was wrong because he was flustered and did not think he had the authority to tell the teams what was going to happen because its the rules and they must be followed.
(edit, just read the post above, and I agree, he was probably getting it from above too)

What leads me to this as much as anything was the way he replied to Toto. I have seen fights start for less terse replies. He could have just told everyone together in a normal voice, and, to be fair, the teams should not have had access to nag him even if the decision was wrong. If a boss you respect tells you what is going to happen you do it, if you do not have confidence in him you argue.

It should not have reached the stage where he lost authority, no matter what his decisions were and for that reason alone he must go.
He will not be sacked, there are many jobs he would be fine for, and he has had experience no one else currently has.
Maybe an overall role covering tracks marshals and stewards and his replacement would be good his experience should not be wasted.
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piast9
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Re: FIA Thread

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I do not like it. You don't remove a football match referee because the coach doesn't like his refereeing. It shouldn't be like that in F1 either. Sure, Massi made plenty of mistakes at the end of the 2021 season. But whoever replaces him (if they fire him) will now be afraid to make any decision fearing the reaction of the team who will feel aggrieved.

SmallSoldier
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Re: FIA Thread

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At the end, it could really just be part of the investigation performed… There were clear irregularities on how the race was finished in AD, I don’t think that he made any decisions to favor one driver, but if when question the answer was something like: “I thought it was best for the show” or simply “I didn’t feel that finishing the race under a Safety Car was best” and he disregarded whichever protocols and rules are in place due to something like that, his dismissal would be warranted.

At the end, as many have mentioned, the credibility of the sport has been questioned a lot last season and as Race Director he is the one that is ultimately responsible for that and therefore it isn’t unreasonable that in an effort to recover some credibility he is let go.

Finally, I don’t think that the notion that he will be let go because of Hamilton has any basis whatsoever.

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pob
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Re: FIA Thread

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fritticaldi wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:34 pm
Who will replace Michael Masi ? I think Eduardo Freitas WEC race control director could be a serious candidate.
Silvia Bellot, currently the Formula 2 and 3 race director, is one of the most experienced F1 stewards and would at least be capable of following past precedents which is something Masi repeatedly failed at.

Restomaniac
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Re: FIA Thread

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:35 pm
I agree it was Masi's fault, but where were his 'bosses' throughout the rest of the season when rules seemed to be flexible and were varied as he saw fit.
This is not objecting to him being flexible or changing rules, it is a good thing if done correctly, but somewhere along the way was he not askes 'why did you make this decision and what is it based on'?

Changing a rule is good if it is based on a need, and is done in a way as to be unambiguous, in particular not in a 'I am changing this from now' so suck it up manner.
An example is the moving the 'touchline' from the white line to any point elsewhere on track, and back from track to track.
Had his boss asked why it was done, and he replied 'pressure from the teams' I assume someone would have pointed out 'teams follow rules not make rules' so that in future he was prepared.

I think his decision in the last race was wrong because he was flustered and did not think he had the authority to tell the teams what was going to happen because its the rules and they must be followed.
(edit, just read the post above, and I agree, he was probably getting it from above too)

What leads me to this as much as anything was the way he replied to Toto. I have seen fights start for less terse replies. He could have just told everyone together in a normal voice, and, to be fair, the teams should not have had access to nag him even if the decision was wrong. If a boss you respect tells you what is going to happen you do it, if you do not have confidence in him you argue.

It should not have reached the stage where he lost authority, no matter what his decisions were and for that reason alone he must go.
He will not be sacked, there are many jobs he would be fine for, and he has had experience no one else currently has.
Maybe an overall role covering tracks marshals and stewards and his replacement would be good his experience should not be wasted.
I think he was damaged goods after Spa. One of the most cynical things I think I’ve ever seen.
Then add in Silverstone, Monza, Interlagos, Saudi and the **** show in the last race. He’d lost complete control and was all over the place with his rulings.

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Re: FIA Thread

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piast9 wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:37 am
I do not like it. You don't remove a football match referee because the coach doesn't like his refereeing. It shouldn't be like that in F1 either. Sure, Massi made plenty of mistakes at the end of the 2021 season. But whoever replaces him (if they fire him) will now be afraid to make any decision fearing the reaction of the team who will feel aggrieved.
Actually if a referee makes a monumental error then yes, yes they do.

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Ryar
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Re: FIA Thread

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wesley123 wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:51 pm
Ryar wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:50 pm
It would be damning and further damage the already damaged reputation of FIA, if one team can barter the hiring or firing of FIA staff, regardless of the situation. It sets a precedence for that team and for other teams that, they can lodge a review against a FIA decision and agree to drop it by asking FIA to fire one of their own. FIA stewardship has always been questionable on many instances and if this one leads to a new precedence, FIA would be allowing teams to hold them for ransom. If the other teams watch this as mute spectators, it's only because they would be emboldended to play a similar trick when their turn comes.
Assuming this was Mercedes' doing, of course, on which there is no proof.
Masi's decision making has been questionable throughout the season and impacted both the protaganist teams, but allowing one to bay for his blood, is plain stupid on FIA's part. They can look at restructuring some of the gaps in the process and put better measures to improve decision making, instead of firing a member because there is someone unhappy about the outcome of a decision. FIA would come across as childish and toothless if they get bullied in this one.
If you had to explain your decisions every single time(and that isn't even an overreaction), how long would you get to keep your job?

Whatever way you want to look at it, he made a huge mess of things. And while there are a whole lot of things you can do to improve things, you have to wonder how credible Masi still is after the 2021 season. F1 suffered quite a decent amount of damage to their image due to his decision. The FIA suffered quite a decent amount of damage to their image because of his decision. Max' first title will always be doubted because of his decision. At some point someone cannot fill his role anymore because of such events, and we are well beyond that.
Isn't this is the approach that Ferrari has taken, firing after firing and look what they have earned out of it. Masi is in his 3rd year of this demanding role and was at the helm in what can be termed as the most intense year of the championships in the last couple of decades. One learns from difficult experiences and it's important to harness such harsh learnings and make better processes to handle gaps. There is no guarantee that a new person would come and suddenly be top class if we have another intense year. What happens then? Fire another RD? Rationale is to keep the emotions aside and think what can be done better. Firing is an option for lesser individuals on the internet forums, but if an organization has to responsibly imporve the situation, then there has to be more considerate measures. It's naive to expect sudden change in performance of race director and IMO it would be the consistent improvement of measures put in place that would bring better decision making.
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Re: FIA Thread

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piast9 wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:37 am
I do not like it. You don't remove a football match referee because the coach doesn't like his refereeing. It shouldn't be like that in F1 either. Sure, Massi made plenty of mistakes at the end of the 2021 season. But whoever replaces him (if they fire him) will now be afraid to make any decision fearing the reaction of the team who will feel aggrieved.
This is not just about a team/coach not liking a match's refereeing though. Its about referee changing the rules of the game. Using the football analogy as an example; you have 2 teams tied on points/goals in a championship deciding match. They play 90 mins of the game plus extra time and are tied. Then they play an 30mins extra time and are still tied on goals at the end. It then goes into penalty shootout after which they are still tied on goals. It finally goes into sudden death penalty shootout. The first team to take the spot kick misses and the referee stops the match and declares the other team, yet to take their turn, the winner. Imagine the furore? No only will the ref be removed, she/he will face serious sanctions, assuming, given the mentality of football fans, he/she doesnt have to go into hiding.
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SiLo
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Re: FIA Thread

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A good example would the the referee at AFCON ending the match on 85 minutes, and then again at 89 minutes before he was removed and replaced by the 4th official.
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Big Tea
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Re: FIA Thread

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piast9 wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:37 am
I do not like it. You don't remove a football match referee because the coach doesn't like his refereeing. It shouldn't be like that in F1 either. Sure, Massi made plenty of mistakes at the end of the 2021 season. But whoever replaces him (if they fire him) will now be afraid to make any decision fearing the reaction of the team who will feel aggrieved.
Referee's are regularly judged and 'scored' on their performance. They gain higher level games if they have a consistently high score or if they have a poor score they can even be 'sent back to school' to brush up.
They are often asked to justify a decision by 'the panel'

They start off being linesmen or other lower level officials and only progress as they prove their capability.
( I refer specifically to Rugby ref's but assume all follow the same path )

Poor Masi unfortunately did not have this option, but there must be some sort of oversight and guidance? or not? if not why?

I was quite annoyed at him at first, but after thinking it over, I real do feel he was given the sink or swim option and not supported at all. I do feel empathy for him now and think he was left to get on with what must be a really difficult job, with no (or seeming no) support and made to carry the blame when things went wrong.
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