Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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jumpingfish
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904
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CFD Eyes of Sauron

timoth
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:42 am
I don't know man. This again reminds me of 2014. Mercedes going full power while Ferrari going for the compact engine to favor aerodynamics. And we know what was the results. Mercedes did it in 2021 too. Those bulgy plenums don't do good for aerodynamics but gave 20 more hp to Mercedes.

A point that I think is exaggerated is 8% or about 80hp loss due to the introduction of E10 fuel. Ethanol has 30% less specific energy than gasoline. With a very simple calculation, you could see that the fuel mixture is losing about 3% of energy compared to last year. Now, why does losing 3% of energy reduces power by 8% (80hp)? In road cars, if you switch from gasoline to E10, your consumption increases by 3 to 5 percent (Or in other words, if you use the same amount of fuel, you lose about 3 to 5 percent of power). So why a formula 1 car should lose 8%? I think it's exaggerated by journalists.

ryaan2904
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timoth wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:07 am
ryaan2904 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:42 am
I don't know man. This again reminds me of 2014. Mercedes going full power while Ferrari going for the compact engine to favor aerodynamics. And we know what was the results. Mercedes did it in 2021 too. Those bulgy plenums don't do good for aerodynamics but gave 20 more hp to Mercedes.

A point that I think is exaggerated is 8% or about 80hp loss due to the introduction of E10 fuel. Ethanol has 30% less specific energy than gasoline. With a very simple calculation, you could see that the fuel mixture is losing about 3% of energy compared to last year. Now, why does losing 3% of energy reduces power by 8% (80hp)? In road cars, if you switch from gasoline to E10, your consumption increases by 3 to 5 percent (Or in other words, if you use the same amount of fuel, you lose about 3 to 5 percent of power). So why a formula 1 car should lose 8%? I think it's exaggerated by journalists.
I dont think it's about going compact, it's about going lighter (weight rather than size). Also honda produced a stellar engine in 2021 and they went below their 'size zero' concept too. So lets see what comes up.
CFD Eyes of Sauron

Sevach
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Rumours are rumours, but most things we hear are about making the engine more powerful, optimizing combustion...
In comparison these "lightweight" rumours are very recent, and i agree with some who said with minimum weight and CG... kinda pointless.

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lio007
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Any idea or explanation for the additional pipe on top of the exhaust?
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Hoffman900
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lio007 wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:38 pm
Any idea or explanation for the additional pipe on top of the exhaust?
https://i.imgur.com/iR0WnpO.png
Wastegate has to dump into the exhaust per rules.

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JordanMugen
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Sevach wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:53 am
Rumours are rumours, but most things we hear are about making the engine more powerful, optimizing combustion...
In comparison these "lightweight" rumours are very recent, and i agree with some who said with minimum weight and CG... kinda pointless.
"use of new composite materials inside the PU"

I guess the use of good ol' metal matrix composites within the engine block would allow for not just a lighter & thinner but also a more compact engine block? :?: Assuming composite materials refers to metal matrix composites.

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Zynerji
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 3:34 am
Sevach wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:53 am
Rumours are rumours, but most things we hear are about making the engine more powerful, optimizing combustion...
In comparison these "lightweight" rumours are very recent, and i agree with some who said with minimum weight and CG... kinda pointless.
"use of new composite materials inside the PU"

I guess the use of good ol' metal matrix composites within the engine block would allow for not just a lighter & thinner but also a more compact engine block? :?: Assuming composite materials refers to metal matrix composites.
I was thinking carbon fiber cams and rockers! 🤣🤣

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etusch
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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timoth wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:07 am
ryaan2904 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:42 am
I don't know man. This again reminds me of 2014. Mercedes going full power while Ferrari going for the compact engine to favor aerodynamics. And we know what was the results. Mercedes did it in 2021 too. Those bulgy plenums don't do good for aerodynamics but gave 20 more hp to Mercedes.

A point that I think is exaggerated is 8% or about 80hp loss due to the introduction of E10 fuel. Ethanol has 30% less specific energy than gasoline. With a very simple calculation, you could see that the fuel mixture is losing about 3% of energy compared to last year. Now, why does losing 3% of energy reduces power by 8% (80hp)? In road cars, if you switch from gasoline to E10, your consumption increases by 3 to 5 percent (Or in other words, if you use the same amount of fuel, you lose about 3 to 5 percent of power). So why a formula 1 car should lose 8%? I think it's exaggerated by journalists.
I wonder what is main speciality of E10 fuel. Is it harder to combust or has lesser energy in it? If it has lesser energy power loss is inevitable but if it is hard to combust compared to previous one maybe they can use higher compression ratios safely and get better torq. Maybe this is why merc developed new turbo

timoth
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:40 pm
timoth wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:07 am
ryaan2904 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:42 am
I don't know man. This again reminds me of 2014. Mercedes going full power while Ferrari going for the compact engine to favor aerodynamics. And we know what was the results. Mercedes did it in 2021 too. Those bulgy plenums don't do good for aerodynamics but gave 20 more hp to Mercedes.

A point that I think is exaggerated is 8% or about 80hp loss due to the introduction of E10 fuel. Ethanol has 30% less specific energy than gasoline. With a very simple calculation, you could see that the fuel mixture is losing about 3% of energy compared to last year. Now, why does losing 3% of energy reduces power by 8% (80hp)? In road cars, if you switch from gasoline to E10, your consumption increases by 3 to 5 percent (Or in other words, if you use the same amount of fuel, you lose about 3 to 5 percent of power). So why a formula 1 car should lose 8%? I think it's exaggerated by journalists.
I wonder what is main speciality of E10 fuel. Is it harder to combust or has lesser energy in it? If it has lesser energy power loss is inevitable but if it is hard to combust compared to previous one maybe they can use higher compression ratios safely and get better torq. Maybe this is why merc developed new turbo
The energy density of ethanol is definitely lower than gasoline. The energy density of ethanol is 27 MJ/kg and gasoline is 47 MJ/kg.
Interestingly yesterday after the car launch Binotto did an interview with motorsport Italy. He said with the new fuel they started with a loss of 20 hp and they recovered as much as they could. The fact that he said they started with a 20 hp loss and recovered on that, seems like maybe there's no power loss compared to last year. Maybe even more power than last year depending on how much they recovered.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:39 pm
lio007 wrote:
Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:38 pm
Any idea or explanation for the additional pipe on top of the exhaust?
https://i.imgur.com/iR0WnpO.png
Wastegate has to dump into the exhaust per rules.
Yes. There are exhaust rules changes this year. 2021 5.8.2, ''all and only the turbine exit exhaust gases must pass through the turbine tailpipe. All and only the waste gate exhaust gases must pass through waste gate tailpipe/s. and non of the tailpipes may be contained within any of the other tail pipes’’. 2022 5.9.2 ''all turbine exit and all waste gate exhaust fluids must pass through the tail pipe’’.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Ethanol LHV = 29.7 MJ/Kg
Gasoline LHV = 46.4 MJ/Kg


Let the relative LHV of gasoline be 1 and ethanol be 29.7/46.4 = 0.64

2021 E5 fuel relative LHV = 95% x 1 + 5% x 0.64 = 98.2%

2022 E10 fuel relative LHV = 90% x 1 + 10% x 0.64 = 96.4%

Relative expected drop in power compared to last year assuming non detonation limited =
(96.4% - 98.2%)/98.2% = -1.83%

So all esle being the same the new E10 fuel should be 1.83% weaker than last year's E5 fuel.

Since the ICE are about 850 hp this loss is about 15.5 horsepower. All esle being the same.
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hpras
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Didn't the previous 5% just need to be biologically derived, not necessarily ethanol. That 5% could have had more energy by mass than ethanol.

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Juzh
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hpras wrote:
Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:39 am
Didn't the previous 5% just need to be biologically derived, not necessarily ethanol. That 5% could have had more energy by mass than ethanol.
That's true. It was mentioned by a mercedes engine guy I think in a youtube video. 5% from last year cant be at all compared to 10% this year because of this. I'm sceptical power loss was only 15-20 hp, probably much more than that initially.