Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Marty_Y wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:59 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:06 pm
F1 engines were detonation limited, and probably still are. However, the cooling effect of the additional ethanol should lower that. It could be mean more aggressive timings are now possible, and it also could mean that some frictional effects could be reduced near TDC. So who knows, it might balance back out.
In this video it's mentioned that the new fuel has more Knock resistance, so they theoretically could run the engine harder to compensate the reduction of energy in the fuel.



Apologies for sharing a Mercedes video in the Honda thread.
Knock resistance make it a little bit more close to diesel but lesser energy in the fuel still cause power loss. Even they recover it by combusting fuel better in the ice, they will loss power in mgu-h

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Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Looking forward to testing this week especially Friday. I understand that the wick will be turned up on Friday.
As far as the "power loss" from the new fuel, I think that is being made a bigger issue than reality. I know Honda has been hard at work since August-September of last year on this season's PU. Rumor has it that one of the four is having a slightly tougher time dealing with the E10 and it is definitely not Honda.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:41 pm
Looking forward to testing this week especially Friday. I understand that the wick will be turned up on Friday.
As far as the "power loss" from the new fuel, I think that is being made a bigger issue than reality. I know Honda has been hard at work since August-September of last year on this season's PU. Rumor has it that one of the four is having a slightly tougher time dealing with the E10 and it is definitely not Honda.
Good to hear from you @wazari San!
Thanks for the update and hope you share what you can with us this year.

I think I can comfortably say many of us enjoy your insights.

Cheers

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Airshifter
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I know there are articles suggesting Ferrari had some concerns, but to be quite honest I can't imagine any F1 engine manufacturer struggling to cope with the minor fuel changes. Though E10 has lower energy content, the octane increase will help with blending. And many are disregarding that last years engines also has a bio fuel requirement, just at a lower level, and not specific to ethanol.

Keep in mind that F1 still allows a fairly high mixture of aromatics, and it hasn't changed for this year. This is essentially the "new lead" for engines, in the chemicals that make it the BTEX mixture. Road cars and toxins concerns have this limited already in most countries to below what F1 can use, or at least some of the chemicals deemed more hazardous.

With the custom blending going on for the F1 fuel suppliers, they shouldn't have any issues at all. They have a lot of options, and I'm sure the blenders and those changing the engine maps and such were on this issue early.




Back in 2011, Shell did an event with Ferrari and ran pump gas in the F1 car. I thought it was quite interesting. The pump gas gave a higher top speed in the run. :mrgreen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zub ... U&t=37s

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lio007
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Are there any serious concerns about the fuel pump issue and MGUK-shaft failure they had in Barcelona?

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Airshifter wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:13 am
I know there are articles suggesting Ferrari had some concerns, but to be quite honest I can't imagine any F1 engine manufacturer struggling to cope with the minor fuel changes. Though E10 has lower energy content, the octane increase will help with blending. And many are disregarding that last years engines also has a bio fuel requirement, just at a lower level, and not specific to ethanol.

Keep in mind that F1 still allows a fairly high mixture of aromatics, and it hasn't changed for this year. This is essentially the "new lead" for engines, in the chemicals that make it the BTEX mixture. Road cars and toxins concerns have this limited already in most countries to below what F1 can use, or at least some of the chemicals deemed more hazardous.

With the custom blending going on for the F1 fuel suppliers, they shouldn't have any issues at all. They have a lot of options, and I'm sure the blenders and those changing the engine maps and such were on this issue early.




Back in 2011, Shell did an event with Ferrari and ran pump gas in the F1 car. I thought it was quite interesting. The pump gas gave a higher top speed in the run. :mrgreen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zub ... U&t=37s
Where are those articles? Every article I have read about Ferrari has said that they are doing very well with the new fuel and may have the lowest amount of power loss

You say it is a minor fuel change but most articles say it contributes to a loss of approx 60 - 80kph. The teams have been working with fuel suppliers and engine designers to get as much of the power back as possible

I have heard reliability rumours about Renault, but nothing about lack of power

The last article about the Mercedes engine, said its been a "complete terror" to design with no information about power

kevpasca
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:26 am
kevpasca wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:21 am
"Honda: Competitors 'downplay' impact of new Formula 1 fuel"
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/103711/h ... -fuel.html,
.
I wonder how Honda is skeptical about power gain and none of the teams have been able to do it. Imagine if the power gain is true and Honda is the only manufacturer who didn't gain back the lost hp. Not to forget that the Honda engine was badly beaten by Mercedes in the last four races, they still have so much work to do. Deciding to stay back in 2022 after their 2021 success and go back to 2016-17 levels, would be truly Honda.
Engine manufacturers were bringing lesser power gains than 20 hp to new seasons. So if new fuel's nature brings 20 hp loss and different combustion characteristic then it is of course harder thing compared to trying to get more power from same fuel.
But it is obvious that you have a beaten man sore. So it is ok for me.

Well, according to Ducessa, all 2021 PUs without adaptations had -80/-90 hp with E10. The other teams have managed to recover so they have a 20hp loss. In previous months, Duchessa has said that Ferrari with Shell has managed to regain power so the loss is 20hp. Mercedes with Petronas is in the same boat as Ferrari.
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I don't think other manufacturers were bringing lesser power gains than 20 hp to new seasons, they're definitely doing more than that, considering the engine freeze regulations they'll be dealing with. Other manufacturers even revamped the concept.
Mercedes CTO James Allison said “Four manufacturers must pack in as much goodness as they can into their engines this year before the engine are locked in for this and the following three seasons. Mercedes has come with some new turbos and intercoolers this year for a bit of extra hp and a smaller package. Ferrari has completely changed and Revolutionised everything and saying that they think they have caught up to where they need to be. Renault said they put performance over reliability and have changed to split turbos.
With Honda, I haven't heard anything other than skepticism and struggling. The problem is not just to recover the power lost because of E10, the real problem is how to beat the ridiculously fast Mercedes Brazil engine which will surely be even faster in the 2022 season. I guess, it is unwise to be skeptical and underestimate the others.
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Not hating, just worrying, worrying so much about Honda. But after hearing a statement from Mr. Wazari, It is a little bit relieving.
Last edited by kevpasca on Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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etusch
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Marko already said that honda don't have power loss. Now Wazari san and before those, another forumer by translating a honda interview.
I want to emphasise that and ask; aren't you also sceptical about Honda. Because of what they lived when they came the sport, every bad news about Honda pu are directly accepted by many people here and every good news are suspected. In reality Honda(with Redbull ) beat Mercedes with their unexplainable uninspected engine. Honda prooved their tech and what they can achieve.
And if power gain gained by fuel prepared by fuel supplier by mentioned manufacturers what is honda's job there? Just a new fuel and job done?
Now it is time to look second preseason tests
Last edited by etusch on Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ispano6
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kevpasca wrote:
Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:21 am
Deciding to stay back in 2022 after their 2021 success and go back to 2016-17 levels, would be truly Honda.
What do you mean by this? What precedent is there that would make it "TRULY HONDA"? Your skepticism is a bit cynical is it not, but that could be because of what was lost in translation and the usual BS that non-Japanese article's emphasis places on things Honda personnel say. The actual Japanese that Asaki used regarding the other engine manufacturers did not use wording such as "downplaying". He actually said that the fact they mentioned that they recovered the power loss due to E10 acknowledges that it was one of the challenges they (all engine manufacturers) had to face.
I don't see on what basis you can say that Honda would "go back to 2016-2017 levels".

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ispano6
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lio007 wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:34 am
Are there any serious concerns about the fuel pump issue and MGUK-shaft failure they had in Barcelona?
Source?

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ispano6
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etusch wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:17 pm
Marko already said that honda don't have power loss. Now Wazari san and before those, another forumer by translating a honda interview.
I want to emphasise that and ask; aren't you also sceptical about Honda. Because of what they lived when they came the sport every bad news about Honda pu are directly accepted by many and every good news are suspected. In reality they beat Mercedes with their unexplainable uninspected engine. They prooved their tech and what they can achieve.
And if power gain gained by fuel by mentioned manufacturers what is honda's job there? Just a new fuel and job done?
Now it is time to look second preseason tests
Exxon Mobil and Honda have upgrades they couldn't introduce last season around cooling (fluids + homologation) as well. This was mentioned by Exxon Mobil last year on their website.

Also here's a translation from F1-gate of Honda's 2022 PU:
Red Bull Racing team representative Christian Horner revealed that Honda had been “pushing as hard as possible” to make final adjustments to the power unit by the March 1 deadline for the F1 engine development freeze.

Honda has only officially withdrawn from F1 for the 2021 season but will continue to work with Red Bull as part of the transition until Red Bull Powertrains builds its own powerplant.

The homologation deadline for the F1 engine development stop is March 1st, but MGU-K, energy storage and control electronics can be changed until September 1st. After that, the F1 aggregate will be frozen until the end of 2025.

Christian Horner explained that Honda had been working hard to make the necessary upgrades over the last month before the homologation freeze came into effect.

“We still had a month to tackle it,” said Christian Horner, Red Bull Racing team representative.

“Obviously the Honda guys pushed as hard as they could but when homologation came that was it.”

Christian Horner also dismissed speculation that Honda’s F1 engine has not been significantly upgraded from the 2021 model, aside from the addition of the new E10 fuel.

“It’s a completely new engine,” adds Christian Horner.

Referring to the ERS renewal, which is allowed by the September 1 deadline, Christian Horner said the job would get done if Honda’s team “found an improvement”.

Honda’s involvement in Formula 1 has changed since the beginning. Honda has officially left F1, but the relationship with Red Bull doesn’t seem to have changed much.

There is one important difference, however. That means Red Bull is now paying for upgrades like ERS updates.

“We pay for technology,” explains Christian Horner.

“We are grateful to Honda for the offer to switch to a drive unit manufacturer.”

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lio007
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:17 am
lio007 wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:34 am
Are there any serious concerns about the fuel pump issue and MGUK-shaft failure they had in Barcelona?
Source?
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... lona-2022/
On the second day of testing, the problems first affected the gearbox and later the power unit. Parts like the fuel pump had shaken loose and maltreated the power unit. The shaft for the MGU-K broke.

kevpasca
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:17 pm
Marko already said that honda doesn't have power loss. Now Wazari san and before those, another forumer by translating a honda interview.
https://www.marca.com/en/f1/2022/03/02/ ... b457e.html
Helmut Marko himself said, "In terms of engine power, it seems that Ferrari is now the best”. It means Honda lost its lead over what was previously arguably the best engine of the 2021 season. It means the power gain is true. And as I was said, it is unwise to be skeptical and underestimate other manufacturers about E10 power gain. Because if it's true, it's gonna be a big problem.
.
etusch wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:17 pm
I want to emphasize that and ask; aren't you also skeptical about Honda. Because of what they lived when they came to the sport, every bad news about Honda PU is directly accepted by many people here and every good news is suspected. In reality, Honda(with Redbull) beat Mercedes with their unexplainable uninspected engine. Honda proved their tech and what they can achieve.
And if power gain gained by fuel prepared by fuel supplier by mentioned manufacturers what is honda's job there? Just a new fuel and job done?
Now it is time to look at second preseason tests
I am just concerned, and wish that Honda was doing enough to keep Mercedes at bay. Because other manufacturers get the power gain not only from the fuel supplier but also from upgrading their engine. As I was saying, Mercedes has come with some new turbos and intercoolers and a smaller package. Ferrari has completely changed and revolutionized everything. Renault has changed to split turbos. There's no news regarding upgraded Honda's 2022 PU, that is why I am concerned.
.
And yes, it is time to look at second preseason tests.
Last edited by kevpasca on Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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organic
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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kevpasca wrote:
Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:17 am
etusch wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:17 pm
Marko already said that honda doesn't have power loss. Now Wazari san and before those, another forumer by translating a honda interview.
https://www.marca.com/en/f1/2022/03/02/ ... b457e.html
Helmut Marko himself said, "In terms of engine power, it seems that Ferrari is now the best”. It means Honda lost its lead over what was previously arguably the best engine of the 2021 season. It means the power gain is true. And as I was said, it is unwise to be skeptical and underestimate other manufacturers about E10 power gain. Because if it's true, it's gonna be a big problem.
.
etusch wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:17 pm
I want to emphasize that and ask; aren't you also skeptical about Honda. Because of what they lived when they came to the sport, every bad news about Honda PU is directly accepted by many people here and every good news is suspected. In reality, Honda(with Redbull) beat Mercedes with their unexplainable uninspected engine. Honda proved their tech and what they can achieve.
And if power gain gained by fuel prepared by fuel supplier by mentioned manufacturers what is honda's job there? Just a new fuel and job done?
Now it is time to look at second preseason tests
I am just concerned, and wish that Honda was doing enough to keep Mercedes at bay. Because other manufacturers get the power gain not only from the fuel supplier but also from upgrading their engine. As I was saying, Mercedes has come with some new turbos and intercoolers and a smaller package. Ferrari completely changed and revolutionized everything. Renault has changed to split turbos.
.
Yes, it is time to look at second preseason tests.
Since when was Marko a reliable source about.. anything? :)

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wogx
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Big Tea wrote:
Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:51 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:02 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:56 pm
What's happening with the Power unit thread now? Is it still there as Honda or will there be a new 'Red Bull Power unit' thread?
It's still the Honda PU, only now called RBPTH001, so why another thread? Moreover, there won't be much news to write about it now, because we depend on what ORBR wants to say about it.
Please no new thread, because there is so much to read about the past years and then we can compare everything with this year.
Thats what I was hoping