CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
User avatar
Vanja #66
676
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: BGD, SRB

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

vorticism wrote:
Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:53 pm
For fun (maybe ours, not yours) it would be cool to seek you mock up your Ferrari model with the engine cover slats, but duct them to the inner half of the sidepod inlets. We saw in testing they used both small and large slats. Now, that could be for testing heat rejection. Or, maybe it's an aero device. If so, what effect would it have? They'd be playing around with how much air is being deflected around the front of the sidepod, in one sense.

Might seem compromised, but what other way is there to move air in a straight shot through this part of the car? Short of making L-shaped sidepods as done by other cars in the past, there isn't one. Rather than pushing air up and over or around the sides, they allow it to pass straight through, with some surface drag penalty.

As for the Williams, there are photos which show that the duct does not have heat exchangers ahead of it. It seems to be either for directing flow down the sidepod, as you suggest, or I'm also thinking it could be a way for them to adjust cooling requirement based on weather. Larger duct for cool weather, no duct for hot weather. In testing the ran the duct both closed and open.
Like I said earlier, I've done what I can with what is available. :) Simulations are far from ideal and they have their limitations. Taking them further would go beyond those limitations and well into a zone with too many assumptions.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Andi76
Andi76
86
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:19 pm

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

Just heard Michael Schmidt, an experienced and well-informed F1-journalist for more than 30 years, saying that Ferrari was the only team able to generate consistent downforce over a large range of ride heights, especially with high-ride heights at the rear. He also reported that Ferrari enjoyed a massive advantage in slow corners. Mattia Binotto said that Ferrari will not change a lot on their car. It seems like the Ferrari is working extremely well and like it was supposed to do. So Ferrari will do some optimization only. Because their car works extremely well and as planed. It seems like Ferrari got it right this time. Up to this point at least.

User avatar
S E C T I O
6
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:29 pm

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

Andi76 wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:14 am
Just heard Michael Schmidt, an experienced and well-informed F1-journalist for more than 30 years, saying that Ferrari was the only team able to generate consistent downforce over a large range of ride heights, especially with high-ride heights at the rear. He also reported that Ferrari enjoyed a massive advantage in slow corners. Mattia Binotto said that Ferrari will not change a lot on their car. It seems like the Ferrari is working extremely well and like it was supposed to do. So Ferrari will do some optimization only. Because their car works extremely well and as planed. It seems like Ferrari got it right this time. Up to this point at least.
Very nice, maybe you could repeat to those jokers running around in the team tread.
-§- Each section is wholeness. Oo==§==oO My english suck,sorry-§-

dialtone
dialtone
60
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:31 am

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

S E C T I O wrote:
Andi76 wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:14 am
Just heard Michael Schmidt, an experienced and well-informed F1-journalist for more than 30 years, saying that Ferrari was the only team able to generate consistent downforce over a large range of ride heights, especially with high-ride heights at the rear. He also reported that Ferrari enjoyed a massive advantage in slow corners. Mattia Binotto said that Ferrari will not change a lot on their car. It seems like the Ferrari is working extremely well and like it was supposed to do. So Ferrari will do some optimization only. Because their car works extremely well and as planed. It seems like Ferrari got it right this time. Up to this point at least.
Very nice, maybe you could repeat to those jokers running around in the team tread.
They were quite literally joking and being sarcastic. If you read their comments around testing and the new Ferrari they were both cautiously optimistic.

LM10
LM10
102
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

dialtone wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 10:37 pm
S E C T I O wrote:
Andi76 wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:14 am
Just heard Michael Schmidt, an experienced and well-informed F1-journalist for more than 30 years, saying that Ferrari was the only team able to generate consistent downforce over a large range of ride heights, especially with high-ride heights at the rear. He also reported that Ferrari enjoyed a massive advantage in slow corners. Mattia Binotto said that Ferrari will not change a lot on their car. It seems like the Ferrari is working extremely well and like it was supposed to do. So Ferrari will do some optimization only. Because their car works extremely well and as planed. It seems like Ferrari got it right this time. Up to this point at least.
Very nice, maybe you could repeat to those jokers running around in the team tread.
They were quite literally joking and being sarcastic. If you read their comments around testing and the new Ferrari they were both cautiously optimistic.
Thank you. :)

User avatar
S E C T I O
6
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:29 pm

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

dialtone wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 10:37 pm
S E C T I O wrote:
Andi76 wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:14 am
Just heard Michael Schmidt, an experienced and well-informed F1-journalist for more than 30 years, saying that Ferrari was the only team able to generate consistent downforce over a large range of ride heights, especially with high-ride heights at the rear. He also reported that Ferrari enjoyed a massive advantage in slow corners. Mattia Binotto said that Ferrari will not change a lot on their car. It seems like the Ferrari is working extremely well and like it was supposed to do. So Ferrari will do some optimization only. Because their car works extremely well and as planed. It seems like Ferrari got it right this time. Up to this point at least.
Very nice, maybe you could repeat to those jokers running around in the team tread.
They were quite literally joking and being sarcastic. If you read their comments around testing and the new Ferrari they were both cautiously optimistic.
Good to know, humor is not my strong suit even in my native language.
-§- Each section is wholeness. Oo==§==oO My english suck,sorry-§-

Andi76
Andi76
86
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:19 pm

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

S E C T I O wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 11:19 pm
dialtone wrote:
Sat Mar 05, 2022 10:37 pm
S E C T I O wrote:
Very nice, maybe you could repeat to those jokers running around in the team tread.
They were quite literally joking and being sarcastic. If you read their comments around testing and the new Ferrari they were both cautiously optimistic.
Good to know, humor is not my strong suit even in my native language.
Its not only a lot of journalists being optimistic. Its also Ross Brawn, who said he is highly impressed by Ferrari. And Ross still knows a lot of people at Ferrari. So you can be reasonably sure that Ferraris new car is working extremely well. They have achieved what they wanted to. But its like always - you never know what the competition is doing! But anyway - if they(Ferrari)did not get it wrong(and it seems they got it absolutely right) and no other team has found a silverbullet, one can be really optimistic. Especially since there are a lot of rumours here in Germany that Mercedes has some major concerns about their new car and Red Bull is struggling with a weight-problem...

User avatar
mclaren111
249
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:49 am
Location: Shithole - South Africa

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

Would be wonderful to see a McLaren & Ferrari battle for the championship again... :D :D

User avatar
S E C T I O
6
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:29 pm

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

It would be nice not to have to wait another 21 years before yelling at the top of your lungs in a bad Paris room (what I cared about was the TV).And in between:cry for Gilles,hungry for Didier,fear for Berger in fire,shame about the brave Alboreto,Alesi,with a dog of car,disappointment for Prost torpedoed (?) by Senna at Suzuka, amazement for Schumi who goes mad and torpedoed Villeneuve jr., disbelief at Schumi who breaks his leg and boycotts Irvine who can't find a wheel... so strange...Ferraristi are very lucky and very unlucky at the same time...and maybe i forget something.
-§- Each section is wholeness. Oo==§==oO My english suck,sorry-§-

Xyz22
Xyz22
12
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:05 pm

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

Just wanted to say that David Sanchez (Lead Aerodynamicist on the F1 75) commented on the analysis of the side pods and said that you did a great work considering the available data.

https://www.formu1a.uno/david-sanchez-f ... -la-f1-75/

"I don't think it was properly accurate, but I was impressed with the detail these guys managed to get"

User avatar
aleks_ader
83
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:40 am

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

Haha nice
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

LM10
LM10
102
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

That's amazing! =D>

Better start preparing your application, Vanja. :)

Fer.Fan
Fer.Fan
1
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:31 pm

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

Vanja #66 wrote:
Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:33 pm
vorticism wrote:
Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:53 pm
For fun (maybe ours, not yours) it would be cool to seek you mock up your Ferrari model with the engine cover slats, but duct them to the inner half of the sidepod inlets. We saw in testing they used both small and large slats. Now, that could be for testing heat rejection. Or, maybe it's an aero device. If so, what effect would it have? They'd be playing around with how much air is being deflected around the front of the sidepod, in one sense.

Might seem compromised, but what other way is there to move air in a straight shot through this part of the car? Short of making L-shaped sidepods as done by other cars in the past, there isn't one. Rather than pushing air up and over or around the sides, they allow it to pass straight through, with some surface drag penalty.

As for the Williams, there are photos which show that the duct does not have heat exchangers ahead of it. It seems to be either for directing flow down the sidepod, as you suggest, or I'm also thinking it could be a way for them to adjust cooling requirement based on weather. Larger duct for cool weather, no duct for hot weather. In testing the ran the duct both closed and open.
Like I said earlier, I've done what I can with what is available. :) Simulations are far from ideal and they have their limitations. Taking them further would go beyond those limitations and well into a zone with too many assumptions.
Hi Vanja 66

According to Binotto:

Remembering, however, that the new generation of cars makes the ground effect « the predominant part in terms of performance . From the fund comes 80-90% of the performances , the last tenths from the rest » said the Italian-Swiss TP

You are so right regarding koncept of F1 75. It is better to focus on rear wing and beam wing, try and create more downforce insted of ziro side pods. To have huge undercats ecc. makes cars unstaible. Just look at Aston MR22.

Well done Vanja. =D> =D> =D> =D>

User avatar
Vanja #66
676
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:38 pm
Location: BGD, SRB

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

Xyz22 wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:46 am
Just wanted to say that David Sanchez (Lead Aerodynamicist on the F1 75) commented on the analysis of the side pods and said that you did a great work considering the available data.
I've seen this on F1-75 thread, thanks. :) I'm hoping F1 will post this F1 TV interview on YouTube soon, so we could all hear it without their paywall.

Fer.Fan wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:57 am
Hi Vanja 66

According to Binotto:

Remembering, however, that the new generation of cars makes the ground effect « the predominant part in terms of performance . From the fund comes 80-90% of the performances , the last tenths from the rest » said the Italian-Swiss TP

You are so right regarding koncept of F1 75. It is better to focus on rear wing and beam wing, try and create more downforce insted of ziro side pods. To have huge undercats ecc. makes cars unstaible. Just look at Aston MR22.

Well done Vanja. =D> =D> =D> =D>
I wouldn't say there's right or wrong for now, it's the first season of new rules, everyone is trying something different. Even if Mercedes didn't really take a new sidepod design direction, they did make a big evolutionary step. Having said that, seeing how both Red Bull and Ferrari chose to change a lot from 2021 (especially Ferrari) you get a feeling Mercedes might have played it too safe.

When I mentioned somewhere they chose to compromise the flow on engine cover to achieve those tiny sidepods, this is what I meant. This is maybe the best comparison photo to get a feeling of how clean the area in front of the rear wing actually is. Rear wing bends the oncoming air down, so placing some bodywork in this area will hurt its performance, and therefore also the beam wing and floor performance to some extent.

Image

When I say the air bends down, this is what I mean. These are two x-sweep velocity plots from the base model. Since Y0 is affected by engine cover and generates somewhat distorted flow, I've put a Y150 plot as well, for a better overview. You can see how the air bends down a lot right in front of the rear wing, but this starts all the way around airbox and airbox cameras already. We have to keep in mind this model is not nearly as good as actual cars, meaning actual rear wings will likely bend the air down even more. Again, this means placing any "excess" bodywork in this area will also cause even more rear wing performance loss.

Image

This doesn't mean Mercedes has a poor concept or a poor car. Their floor geometry might be a lot better than Ferrari or Red Bull. Maybe they found a lot of performance benefits from that mirror wing to make it worth the trouble. All I'm saying is I would rather do what Red Bull and Ferrari did. But that's just me. :)
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 am
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

Post

The air is differently-blockaged by each concept.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….