Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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vorticism
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:11 pm
You notice the actuator cylinder is short compared to the maximum stroke. Propbably some cable feed thingy inside of it.
It's a piston connecting high up on the upper runner sleeve. Only about 75% of the actuator is exposed outside the housing. Enough lenght to push the sleeve sections fully. In fact, you can see it in there if tyou look closely.
Last edited by vorticism on Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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N21
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Cool post!
I have read about that inlet system, but seeing it makes it a lot clearer.

Looking at it: could this also be what is happening inside Mercedes’ plenum?

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vorticism
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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N21 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:34 pm
Looking at it: could this also be what is happening inside Mercedes’ plenum?
Yes, they originated this specific format (general shape). They've been using it since 2015 iirc.

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gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:44 pm
. . . . . They are giving up flow resistance efficiency and peak power for (likely) aerodynamic packaging reasons and the gains in pressure wave tuning are offset whatever they are losing there. That is all about torque shaping.
So what would you estimate the loss in VE due to the intake runner bends? Wave tuning gains can easily be greater than 10% VE. Also - don't forget that a loss of 1% VE is not a 1% power loss on these engines. Rather it (roughly) requires a 1% increase in MAP and EAP accompanied by a much, much smaller loss of power. Alternatively they could accept a 1% reduction in mass air flow and a 1% reduction in AFR. What would that cost in terms of power - perhaps 0.1% (1hp)?
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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atanatizante wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:16 am
For the fact that I am a chemical engineer, I was interested in the reasons behind why both RB18 cars DNF the Bahrain race as they could be potential fuel-related now that they need to use E 10 fuel for the 2022 championship.

But firstly it is worth watching this explanatory video from Autosport.com to figure out what could be the most probable reasons that led to both failures on RB18 cars:



They said the main reasons were temperature related as follows:
1. Low fuel levels which led to heat it up
2. Forbidden devices to cool the fuel down
3. The safety car phase at the end of the race forced the cars to run slowly hence overheating, something that Nico Hulkenberg`s AMR22 car had experienced too even in race conditions

After seeing the video, from my technical point of view, I think they missed the new fuel factor but most of all the chemistry-physics properties it has ...

Using E10 means they need to use fuel comprising 10% ethanol from sustainable sources, compared to last year 5,75% ethanol obtained from non-sustainable sources. That means we have almost double the alcohol concentration in the fuel and that is the important factor! Then, both fuel and alcohol are solvents from the chemical properties POV: https://www.britannica.com/science/solvent-chemistry

So what I`m thinking about the main reason is that when the car is running in a race at the end of it when has low fuel levels there are at least 3 conditions that are occurring:
1. fuel has the highest temperature in the fuel tank during a race
2. fuel and alcohol acts both as a solvent and for this year has twice the solvent/dissolving power
3. time sufficient to dissolve/attack etc. the resin in which lifting pump electronics were incapsulated, hence leading to this failure ...

It`ll be interesting to know what countermeasures will be put in place bearing in mind that there will be hot races over the summer/hot climate in other parts of the world ...
Material selection is one of the first things you do as a designer. And it's pretty black and white usually. If you see alcohol whether 1% or 50% you will use alchmohol resistant material.

E10 is not that corossive. It takes months or years to destroy hoses and seals in ill-equipped cars. The bigger problem was sludge it cleaned off the walls jambing up the injectors!
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mclaren_mircea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Helmuth is lying us all. Another Honda engine is dead at the end of Fp2

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atanatizante
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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It seems that you lack the basic notions of chemistry, such as the difference between solvency and pH (acid or basic) ...

The fuel has several physico-chemical properties, but in this case we must take into account only its ability to be a solvent and its Ph, which can be either acidic or basic, information difficult to find given the fact that it is the secret of every oil company...

But whether the pH of the fuel is acidic or basic, its value is more important to highlight how destructive it can be. Thus, the pH range is between 1 and 14 and taking into account that the neutral pH is 7, any pH value approaching 1 implies an increasingly acidic character, respectively towards a more basic one to the pH value of 14. Thus, the corrosion of a solution is higher the more acidic or basic it is or mathematically speaking the higher the pH is towards the values of either 1 or 14 ...
...
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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atanatizante wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:16 am
Using E10 means they need to use fuel comprising 10% ethanol from sustainable sources, compared to last year 5,75% ethanol obtained from non-sustainable sources. .....
5% volumetrically is 5.75% gravimetrically
last year (I presume) they used 5% bio-butanol as Honda showed to that magazine c.2016
so it's 10% ethanol now vs 5% butanol last year

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ringo
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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atanatizante wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:59 pm
It seems that you lack the basic notions of chemistry, such as the difference between solvency and pH (acid or basic) ...

The fuel has several physico-chemical properties, but in this case we must take into account only its ability to be a solvent and its Ph, which can be either acidic or basic, information difficult to find given the fact that it is the secret of every oil company...

But whether the pH of the fuel is acidic or basic, its value is more important to highlight how destructive it can be. Thus, the pH range is between 1 and 14 and taking into account that the neutral pH is 7, any pH value approaching 1 implies an increasingly acidic character, respectively towards a more basic one to the pH value of 14. Thus, the corrosion of a solution is higher the more acidic or basic it is or mathematically speaking the higher the pH is towards the values of either 1 or 14 ...
...
You're welcome! :D
Your theories are not wrong.. but in reality ethanol is not very corrosive that it will destroy a pump in a few hours. This is based on real life evidence with many cars on the road running with e10 or e85 fuel for thousands of hours and the platics arent neccessarily exotic stuff.
The gasoline is more dangerous to the plastics as a solvent right?
The main threat from the ethanol and gasoline to the pump are their boiling points.
For Sure!!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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atanatizante wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:59 pm
It seems that you lack the basic notions of chemistry, such as the difference between solvency and pH (acid or basic) ...

Seriously? I don't think you need a degree in chemistry to see that E10 won't destroy an F10 fuel pump designed for E10.

I have a nineteen eighties BMW that has been running on E10 since the 2000's. The car wasn't made for it and it does fine. Fuel pump still working to this day 30 year old car. Now why would a thousands of dollars fuel pump that was designed for E10 specifically, get corroded by E10 after 200km? Don't you think those engineers should be fired?

The E10 wasn't the problem by the way.
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:56 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:59 pm
It seems that you lack the basic notions of chemistry, such as the difference between solvency and pH (acid or basic) ...

Seriously? I don't think you need a degree in chemistry to see that E10 won't destroy an F10 fuel pump designed for E10.

I have a nineteen eighties BMW that has been running on E10 since the 2000's. The car wasn't made for it and it does fine. Fuel pump still working to this day 30 year old car. Now why would a thousands of dollars fuel pump that was designed for E10 specifically, get corroded by E10 after 200km? Don't you think those engineers should be fired?

The E10 wasn't the problem by the way.
Actually i only read up about the pre season testing , but to me it seems no teams actually did a test to end up without fuel on track as in years before causing a red flag running out of fuel.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mclaren_mircea wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:20 pm
Helmuth is lying us all. Another Honda engine is dead at the end of Fp2
Nice Try, unfortunately for you, the engine working perfectly !
Comment fron the chief engineer from Alpha Tauri! So.... See you soon, or never!

Then unfortunately at the end of the session we had an issue with the driveline on Yuki's car, so had to stop on track. We will review the vitals when it's back in the garage and understand what is needed to turn it around for tomorrow."

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I wonder if these are because of trying to make them lighter or because of new layout of these parts. Maybe both.

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atanatizante
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:14 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:16 am
Using E10 means they need to use fuel comprising 10% ethanol from sustainable sources, compared to last year 5,75% ethanol obtained from non-sustainable sources. .....
5% volumetrically is 5.75% gravimetrically
...
if we are starting with the density definition: d (density) = mass (kg) /(over) volume (m3) and bearing in mind that ethanol has a density of around 789kg/m3 or in 1000 litres, then we can imply that 5% volumetric ethanol has some 50 litres that weight some 39.45 kg as a mass ... so for ethanol we could write the following relation density = 0,789% mass / % volume ... so in your case the above relation should be: % volume = 0,789% mass / density

now regarding those 5.75% volume ethanol that from 110 litres of fuel allowed in F1 it means that they are allowed to have only 6.325 litres of ethanol, the rest 103.675 litres is just gasoline ...

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:14 pm

last year (I presume) they used 5% bio-butanol as Honda showed to that magazine c.2016
so it's 10% ethanol now vs 5% butanol last year
don`t have any info regarding these above statements ...
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atanatizante
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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ringo wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:54 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:59 pm
It seems that you lack the basic notions of chemistry, such as the difference between solvency and pH (acid or basic) ...

The fuel has several physico-chemical properties, but in this case we must take into account only its ability to be a solvent and its Ph, which can be either acidic or basic, information difficult to find given the fact that it is the secret of every oil company...

But whether the pH of the fuel is acidic or basic, its value is more important to highlight how destructive it can be. Thus, the pH range is between 1 and 14 and taking into account that the neutral pH is 7, any pH value approaching 1 implies an increasingly acidic character, respectively towards a more basic one to the pH value of 14. Thus, the corrosion of a solution is higher the more acidic or basic it is or mathematically speaking the higher the pH is towards the values of either 1 or 14 ...
...
You're welcome! :D
Your theories are not wrong.. but in reality ethanol is not very corrosive that it will destroy a pump in a few hours. This is based on real life evidence with many cars on the road running with e10 or e85 fuel for thousands of hours and the platics arent neccessarily exotic stuff.
The gasoline is more dangerous to the plastics as a solvent right?
The main threat from the ethanol and gasoline to the pump are their boiling points.
From the solvent power/capabilities POV you are right that ethanol is a weaker solvent than gasoline but you have to take into account that F1 fuel comprises only 99.3% fuel pump gasoline and just 0.7% of secret ingredients that have many important properties like to increase de octane number, reduce fuel knocking, reduce sludge, carbide & all wasted subproducts obtained in the combustion process and even special lubricate via nanoparticles compounds ... it`s a very complex subject, believe me ...

From what I could see in these 11 years as a member of this distinguished forum is the fact that 99.(9)% of the members have only aerodynamic, mechanical, engineering or racing knowledge, which I think it`s the case this mechanical sport to understand. But unfortunately, in order to further understand this sport, you need to have also some sort of basic chemistry knowledge only for naming the following areas of F1 that need this such as: fuels, lubricants, hydraulic liquids, batteries, carbon fibre, metal alloys, plastics and you name it :) ...

So my point is that not so many guys on this forum could see "the true picture" as American folks say ... many of you guys are based on your theoretical and practical knowledge which are fine and pertinent in day to day life situations, but you have to bear in mind that we are discussing F1 now and in this particular case of lift pump failure there were many factors that were occurring at the same time which led together to this failure ...
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