2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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RZS10
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Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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The article i posted here goes into it a bit viewtopic.php?p=1061069#p1061069 throw it into GT if necessary
The tl:dr is that the A-spec concept showed better numbers initially and the initial steps they made were promising but then even during the development they had to start compromising the setup (ride height) to the point where the car was being run (i guess in the sim) outside the parameters it was designed for - once they realized that the dev ceiling on the A-spec was lower it was too late and they had already started producing the A-spec.

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Raleigh wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 12:52 pm
diffuser wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 12:31 pm
Raleigh wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 10:27 am


Dan Fallows was leading the RBR 2022 aero design, he's naturally going to want to continue that design philosophy rather than start over on a completely new aero concept.
Remember Fallows move was being challenged by RBR foralmost a year and that ended in what was to be a 6months gardening leave. Prior to that they knew he was trying to leave and therefore had placed him on some obscure project not related to F1.
The new generation cars have been under development since roughly late 2019, even if Dan wasn't directly involved with the final RB18 he'll be instantly familiar with the aero concept.

And given that he was only released to start work at Aston this April I expect that the cloning was done by the existing aero team to give Dan the best possible starting point.
Remember they we're Not allowed in the wind tunnel/CDF with the new regs before Jan 2021. They purposely didn't finalise the regs till late 2020.

So they could have illegally worked on the 2022 car which had regulations that were subject to changed and did.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Seems most likely that AM hit a wall with the undercut development, but could not develop/build a car with the downwash in time for the season, so they built an A Spec to start the season and get some points waiting for the B spec. With that, seeing that RBR was going the same way, they leapfrogged their refinement processes by incorporating the RBR philosophy into their own design as well (floor edge specifically).

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wogx
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Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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Exact copy would be illegal

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ringo
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Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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People need to leave AM alone. Let them copy and try their best to get performance. I think copying is ok, once you develop your own copy and not trade company secrets.

It is also possible for both teams to have the same concept from November. Redbull can have a parts bin of alternative designs from early 2021 and whoever went to AM would have known how it looks; without even know this path was chosen by redbull in the end.
I am more inclined to think though, that AM have some really good 3D scanning tools and rapid manufacturing equipment to copy any car they feel is a good car and churn out a 3d model for CFD testing then production once its better than their current design.
For Sure!!

F1doc
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Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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ringo wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 8:52 pm
I am more inclined to think though, that AM have some really good 3D scanning tools and rapid manufacturing equipment to copy any car they feel is a good car and churn out a 3d model for CFD testing then production once its better than their current design.
I think such scanning equipment was outlawed following what happened with the Mercedes clone.

Today's running was interesting. I think the updated AMR22 looked more stable immediately compared to the launch iteration.

Starbuckle486
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Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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senja wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 5:00 pm
Henri wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 8:44 am
Great post. =D>

This was copied first by Ferrari, then Red Bull, now even Mercedes.
Point is, everyone copies. Newey copied S-duct and coanda.
Not a great post by Scarbs, he's missing the point. The point is the AM B-spec work must have begun before the Red Bull was shown in public - which makes the similarities suspicous.

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ringo
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Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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I think he is saying there is no case to ban copying when even small copying is still copying.
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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Zynerji wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 7:50 pm
Seems most likely that AM hit a wall with the undercut development, but could not develop/build a car with the downwash in time for the season, so they built an A Spec to start the season and get some points waiting for the B spec. With that, seeing that RBR was going the same way, they leapfrogged their refinement processes by incorporating the RBR philosophy into their own design as well (floor edge specifically).
My guess would be that what they went with showed more promise till they hit porpoising. Then it didn't.

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2022 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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RZS10 wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 6:06 pm
The article i posted here goes into it a bit viewtopic.php?p=1061069#p1061069 throw it into GT if necessary
The tl:dr is that the A-spec concept showed better numbers initially and the initial steps they made were promising but then even during the development they had to start compromising the setup (ride height) to the point where the car was being run (i guess in the sim) outside the parameters it was designed for - once they realized that the dev ceiling on the A-spec was lower it was too late and they had already started producing the A-spec.
I have the same thought process

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continuum16
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Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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Starbuckle486 wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 9:20 pm
senja wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 5:00 pm
Henri wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 8:44 am
Great post. =D>

This was copied first by Ferrari, then Red Bull, now even Mercedes.
Point is, everyone copies. Newey copied S-duct and coanda.
Not a great post by Scarbs, he's missing the point. The point is the AM B-spec work must have begun before the Red Bull was shown in public - which makes the similarities suspicous.
Also scarbs’ post is from a month ago and is not related to the sidepod development in any capacity.
"You can't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
- Mark Twain

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Blackout
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Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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Copying is not the problem.
According to Horner, there was an illegal transfer of IP; datas have been downloaded...
senja wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 5:00 pm
Henri wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 8:44 am
Great post. =D>

This was copied first by Ferrari, then Red Bull, now even Mercedes.
Point is, everyone copies. Newey copied S-duct and coanda.
The S-duct appeared on the Sauber and RB on the same GP, as far as I remember.

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yinlad
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Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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Blackout wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 6:26 am
Copying is not the problem.
According to Horner, there was an illegal transfer of IP; datas have been downloaded...
senja wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 5:00 pm
Henri wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 8:44 am
Great post. =D>

This was copied first by Ferrari, then Red Bull, now even Mercedes.
Point is, everyone copies. Newey copied S-duct and coanda.
The S-duct appeared on the Sauber and RB on the same GP, as far as I remember.
Horner said he wants to make sure no IP was transferred, which is fair enough. Helmut said something about data being downloaded, which I'd not pay much attention too as he is generally always talking shite.

ferrarifire
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Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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Last year lots of employees were working from home due to covid , so it is very easy for a former employee to copy these designs. I don't think so RB can find who it is .
lets be realistic , there is no way to replicate the car inch by inch by just taking photograph or drawing sketches
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:15 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 12:14 pm
So wait. How is the Aston Martin supposed to have The upgraded RedBull sidpods from last year November? crazy...

I remember back in February Green saying the Aston Martin upgrade will look nothing like the launch car too!

This means that they had a concept from before* Dan Fallows that was similar to the RedBull and that is was refined after the season starts

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Chuckjr
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Re: Aston Martin AMR22

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Look, if they have pics from Nov with this design, I don’t see what the argument is about aero plagiarism. It’s a good design. Clearly we know that.

Didn’t all the teams end up copying the coanda in some way shape or form? Didn’t all engine manufacturers create a blowing effect for the blown diffuser? Didn’t all the manufacturers build some form of double diffuser? Heck back in the day the name of the game was more rear wings. Eventually it got to like 9 or something individual rear wing elements on the back of the car. It was ridiculous. But that’s F1. It’s a friggin circus. Everybody copies because if a design works, it works. It’s not a pride issue, it’s a competitiveness issue. As Al Davis used to say (former owner of the Oakland Raiders), “Just win baby.” That is what you are seeing here.

It would be no surprise at all if next year many cars use a similar if not identical Red Bull pod design. I’d not be surprised if we saw something similar to Ferrari next year in a car or two. Most, if not all copied Ferrari’s forward pod design and that transformed into wings and scoops. This is called development. Nothing squirrelly going on.

It’s not fair to shrug your shoulders at one form of aero plagiarism and not another. One sentence copied or a paragraph copied, is plagiarism. So the same here. One major element or an entire pod — it’s a form of plagiarism, and it’s the highest form of flattery. Accept this. It’s just the way it is. The end.

So it makes complete sense they landed on a near identical design. It’s a good design. Get over it and expect more copies to happen. It’s like team orders — it’s going to happen covertly or overtly whether you like it or not. The teams want to win and will do what’s necessary to win even if it pisses you off. Because they don’t really care about you, they care about winning. That’s why team bosses lie to the public all the time. It’s a circus, remember?

Aero facts don’t care about your feelings, and the team will follow the facts to win regardless how you feel about it, gladiator style. This is love and war. Winner takes all. Second is first loser. Don’t kid yourself thinking they care if you care they copied.

The more you gripe and complain about their actions, or motives, or plagiarisms, the more distracted you’ll become and the less fun you’ll have - and they still won’t care, and you will have less fun. They keep winning and you keep losing. So by appreciating the impossibleness of it all, it becomes so much easier to swallow and so much more fun to watch.

Try and see this as a novelty and how righteous it would be to have another car at the sharp end this year. That would be awesome. They certainly were not going to be competitive in the monstrosity they had, and how cool —how novel— would it be to see AM take Red Bull to school with the design? I’m not saying that will happen, and likely it won’t happe, but now it *could* happen, and so it’s righteously novel. It also would be nice to see old man Vettel have a competitive car again, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

Hats off to AM and what they are doing to try and win. I hope they do well even tho I think Stroll is a $hit driver and should not be in F1.
Watching F1 since 1986.