Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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chrisc90
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dialtone wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:09 pm


Wasn't MGU-K but MGU-H in Barcelona, MGU-K is connected to the ICE while MGU-H is connected to the turbo that overheated and potentially damaged both.

Zhou didn't have a PU failure, the component that failed in his car isn't even Ferrari-made.
Fair, I just did it all from memory and a quick google from race reports from the weekend. I knew it was never a fully accurate list in terms of what went wrong where.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

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etusch
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dialtone wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:30 pm
dfegan358 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:25 pm
Ferrari need to make changes to that power unit. Fast but unreliable.
Since the freeze, what are they allowed to change ?
can change anything for reliability, just need to send FIA documents proving that what you are planning to change is for reliability.

And I doubt there's a need for proof that the engine is unreliable after this race.
I don't know if this one is same issue with what Lec had at spain, but if so there is another issue. Because they investigated mgu-h and found nothing wrong. They don't know what cause failiure

TNTHead
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:17 pm
dialtone wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:30 pm
dfegan358 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:25 pm
Ferrari need to make changes to that power unit. Fast but unreliable.
Since the freeze, what are they allowed to change ?
can change anything for reliability, just need to send FIA documents proving that what you are planning to change is for reliability.

And I doubt there's a need for proof that the engine is unreliable after this race.
I don't know if this one is same issue with what Lec had at spain, but if so there is another issue. Because they investigated mgu-h and found nothing wrong. They don't know what cause failiure
Any news on what part of the PU was damaged? If its only turbo or MGU-H it may be repairable?

dfegan358
dfegan358
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I’m no expert but when you see smoke bellowing out, it ain’t repairable

mzso
mzso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Despite the ridicule I got here, the PU-s keep dropping dead even faster. Monaco wasn't even a normal race, cold, slow, and a shorter distance than others, also power didn't matter much.
Since Leclerc's died again, early in the race, it doesn't seem like it can even handle a full normal race. In contrast, I don't remember the RB having failures to components that are subject to a quota. Even the first PU they just replaced is still usable the way I heard.
Sad for Leclerc. There's always next year I guess. If Ferrari can fix reliability without giving up performance.
dialtone wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:30 pm
dfegan358 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:25 pm
Ferrari need to make changes to that power unit. Fast but unreliable.
Since the freeze, what are they allowed to change ?
can change anything for reliability, just need to send FIA documents proving that what you are planning to change is for reliability.

And I doubt there's a need for proof that the engine is unreliable after this race.
I'm quite sure the FIA needs to accept the change. As and edge case they might as well just submit a completely new design, which is much more reliable, but also better in all other regards as well.
Last edited by mzso on Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tpe
tpe
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Only that all other engine manufactures are informed of the said changes, obviously to avoid such a scenario.

mzso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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tpe wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:31 pm
Only that all other engine manufactures are informed of the said changes, obviously to avoid such a scenario.
True, but I would be surprised if that's the only restriction. (Not even a restriction to be honest)

dialtone
dialtone
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mzso wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:34 pm
tpe wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:31 pm
Only that all other engine manufactures are informed of the said changes, obviously to avoid such a scenario.
True, but I would be surprised if that's the only restriction. (Not even a restriction to be honest)
Literally in the rules.

lh13
lh13
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mzso wrote:Despite the ridicule I got here, the PU-s keep dropping dead even faster. Monaco wasn't even a normal race, cold, slow, and a shorter distance than others, also power didn't matter much.
Since Leclerc's died again, early in the race, it doesn't seem like it can even handle a full normal race. In contrast, I don't remember the RB having failures to components that are subject to a quota. Even the first PU they just replaced is still usable the way I heard.
Sad for Leclerc. There's always next year I guess. If Ferrari can fix reliability without giving up performance.
dialtone wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:30 pm
dfegan358 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:25 pm
Ferrari need to make changes to that power unit. Fast but unreliable.
Since the freeze, what are they allowed to change ?
can change anything for reliability, just need to send FIA documents proving that what you are planning to change is for reliability.

And I doubt there's a need for proof that the engine is unreliable after this race.
I'm quite sure the FIA needs to accept the change. As and edge case they might as well just submit a completely new design, which is much more reliable, but also better in all other regards as well.
Other manufacturers are also informed of the changes and they can agree/object to the proposed changes.

dialtone
dialtone
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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lh13 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:08 pm
mzso wrote:Despite the ridicule I got here, the PU-s keep dropping dead even faster. Monaco wasn't even a normal race, cold, slow, and a shorter distance than others, also power didn't matter much.
Since Leclerc's died again, early in the race, it doesn't seem like it can even handle a full normal race. In contrast, I don't remember the RB having failures to components that are subject to a quota. Even the first PU they just replaced is still usable the way I heard.
Sad for Leclerc. There's always next year I guess. If Ferrari can fix reliability without giving up performance.
dialtone wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:30 pm


can change anything for reliability, just need to send FIA documents proving that what you are planning to change is for reliability.

And I doubt there's a need for proof that the engine is unreliable after this race.
I'm quite sure the FIA needs to accept the change. As and edge case they might as well just submit a completely new design, which is much more reliable, but also better in all other regards as well.
Other manufacturers are also informed of the changes and they can agree/object to the proposed changes.
No they can't. It's to the sole discretion of the FIA. The FIA probes other teams for their opinion on whether the update is a reliability update in their opinion, but the FIA can do whatever they want, the opinion from the teams isn't binding.

lh13
lh13
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dialtone wrote:
lh13 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:08 pm
mzso wrote:Despite the ridicule I got here, the PU-s keep dropping dead even faster. Monaco wasn't even a normal race, cold, slow, and a shorter distance than others, also power didn't matter much.
Since Leclerc's died again, early in the race, it doesn't seem like it can even handle a full normal race. In contrast, I don't remember the RB having failures to components that are subject to a quota. Even the first PU they just replaced is still usable the way I heard.
Sad for Leclerc. There's always next year I guess. If Ferrari can fix reliability without giving up performance.


I'm quite sure the FIA needs to accept the change. As and edge case they might as well just submit a completely new design, which is much more reliable, but also better in all other regards as well.
Other manufacturers are also informed of the changes and they can agree/object to the proposed changes.
No they can't. It's to the sole discretion of the FIA. The FIA probes other teams for their opinion on whether the update is a reliability update in their opinion, but the FIA can do whatever they want, the opinion from the teams isn't binding.
I didn't know that. So if a manufacturer thinks that the changes are not purely reliability related, it is up to them to make a case strong enough to convince the FIA.

Also, wouldn't it possibly leak the critical design information to other manufacturers? Other manufacturers are free to apply the same reliability change to their own engines?

dialtone
dialtone
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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lh13 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:12 pm
dialtone wrote:
lh13 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:08 pm
Other manufacturers are also informed of the changes and they can agree/object to the proposed changes.
No they can't. It's to the sole discretion of the FIA. The FIA probes other teams for their opinion on whether the update is a reliability update in their opinion, but the FIA can do whatever they want, the opinion from the teams isn't binding.
I didn't know that. So if a manufacturer thinks that the changes are not purely reliability related, it is up to them to make a case strong enough to convince the FIA.
Yes basically. But the FIA is full of very technical people and former F1 people too, they don't actually need the teams opinion. The showing items to other teams is really to discourage doing too much with an update but limiting it to really the minimal part that you are forced to reveal. Of course FIA isn't perfect and they may miss something and any team can attempt at convincing them, and they could successful, but it will likely just open up a longer discussion since of course a team whose engines just had so many failures like Ferrari did, is simply going to try again in a different way, and to persuade FIA that Zhou or Magnussen were running super pumped up version of the engine to go up against RedBull is obviously not going to be convincing.

Also Ferrari has already gotten one reliability upgrade done for PU2, so the process isn't impossible.

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chrisc90
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I think its interesting regarding the reliability upgrade docs going into the FIA.

Do we have a list of things that have 'gone wrong' so far?

From what we've seen, this is the first weekend with PU issues where the unit itself has failed. Other weekends have been turbo or MGU-H or CE from other teams(not sure if own versions or not)

Which bit do you upgrade from this weekends standpoint?

Im sure there will be some very in-depth investigations going into the failed PU's from this weekend. Given Lec and Mag were very similar, we dont know what happened with Zhou's yet.

Hopefully Ferrari manage to get ontop of these little niggles as it could well cost them a WCC or even WDC top 3 spot.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

gshevlin
gshevlin
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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From a view of Carlos' steering wheel after he stopped, the transmission was saying it was in 2nd gear, but it sounded like a boxful of neutrals to me as he tried to make the corner.
Charles' failure sounded like an ICE failure. Suddenly the ICE is running down from accelerating, blue oil smoke everywhere, out of the exhausts and airbox, with no power to get the car back to pit lane. KMag had similar smoke coming out of his airbox and exhausts.
I think the ICE was unable to survive the Baku race duty cycle profile.

TNTHead
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gshevlin wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:24 pm
From a view of Carlos' steering wheel after he stopped, the transmission was saying it was in 2nd gear, but it sounded like a boxful of neutrals to me as he tried to make the corner.
Charles' failure sounded like an ICE failure. Suddenly the ICE is running down from accelerating, blue oil smoke everywhere, out of the exhausts and airbox, with no power to get the car back to pit lane. KMag had similar smoke coming out of his airbox and exhausts.
I think the ICE was unable to survive the Baku race duty cycle profile.
If it indeed is the ICE than Ferrari is in big trouble. Fixing that is not easy, especially if you don't want to reduce efficiency and power output.

Because LEC was able to drive to the pits I am not sure it is the ICE thought. Normally with a dead ICE you can't run very long. Therefore I wonder whether the ICE may be undamaged, but may be the turbo or MGU-H or died because of overheating.