Mercedes W13

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AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Mercedes W13

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zibby43 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:19 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:17 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:04 pm
After 3 races in 3 quite different track layouts (though all of them bumpy) it's quite clear that Barcelona's upgrade hasn't done much to improve this car...

The main problem I think is suspension and not so much the floor! If they manage to build a better suspension system like Red Bull's then they'll solve over half of their problems (too stiff suspension --> bouncing + porpoising --> uncomfortable ride --> less confidence for the drivers)

Anyway, I don't see this concept working any time soon! They'll need a whole new aero and suspension concept for 2023 to even be able to fight RB and Ferrari...
I'm not convinced it's suspension (well, this is circular..). Aston Martin have the same suspension as Mercedes and don't have the problems ever since they brought the new package.

It's more a case of, suspension and aero package being incompatible. One can attack the problem in two ways. Fix aero, or fix suspension. It doesn't mean one is bad. It just means they are incompatible with one another. Suspension is working fine on the ASton Martin.
If by working you mean miles off the pace of the front-running teams, then yes, it’s working.

From the team thread:

Sky Germany: James Allison says Mercedes are unhappy with suspension and aero. He says they know their issues and are going in the right direction. It will take time, though, as it's not going to get fixed overnight. But he appreciates the drivers, saying how patient they are.

So it appears both facets are not working right now.
In terms of the AM drivers not being shaken to bits, and them being able to focus on performance upgrades is what I mean.

Of course I'm not going to disagree with Allison, however I might add that he might be making it sounds worse with his phrasing. After all, if they were permitted to run active suspension, suddenly the aero package would be "perfect". So in that sense, it's a matter of compatibility. You could see it as the suspension not able to cope with the demands of the aero package or the aero package being unnecessarily demanding of the suspension.

AA_2019
AA_2019
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Watching Toto speak just now after the race, he mentions the development direction they will going to, they will follow the RB direction of developing a car with rake.

Finally acceptance of the concept followed by the fastest car. Probably 5 races too late but better now than 10 races from now.
Why the Ferrari is so fast is a bigger mystery than why the Merc W13 is so slow !

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chrisc90
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Re: Mercedes W13

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AA_2019 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:13 pm
Watching Toto speak just now after the race, he mentions the development direction they will going to, following the RB direction of developing a car with rake.

Finally acceptance of the concept followed by the fastest car. Probably 5 races too late but better now than 10 races from now.
I was just about to come here and comment similar. Toto said their tunnel has been 'setup' to keep the car flat in the tunnel which gives most downforce, not thinking of putting a bit of rake into the car like we see on the Red Bull.

I think now they have looked at that possibility, It will give them a bit more scope to work with on the car. Not sure if those concepts/theories were in place this weekend, as the back of the Merc floor still looked VERY low, but if they can work out where it 'ends up' on full speed with putting a bit rake into the car it will be interesting. I think they are fast enough to lap with the Ferrari and Red Bull, at least within a very small margin anyhow.

With Silverstone being a much smoother track, be interesting to see where they are next weekend.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

LilDEF1
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Re: Mercedes W13

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AA_2019 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:13 pm
Watching Toto speak just now after the race, he mentions the development direction they will going to, they will follow the RB direction of developing a car with rake.

Finally acceptance of the concept followed by the fastest car. Probably 5 races too late but better now than 10 races from now.
So is this new higher rake concept something that they gonna introduce this year hopefully in the coming races or next year? I wonder what they'll be bringing in the next race where a lot of teams will be bringing upgrades. If they sticking to the current concept I wonder if a new reinforced floor(one without stays) along with suspension tweaks will finally solve the bouncing. It would be a fast car flat to the ground...

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carisi2k
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Re: Mercedes W13

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The problem with the Mercedes going down the red bull path is that the W13's suspension concept is the opposite of red bull with a push/pull design vs the RB18's pull/push.

Polarit
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Re: Mercedes W13

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chrisc90 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:18 pm
I was just about to come here and comment similar. Toto said their tunnel has been 'setup' to keep the car flat in the tunnel which gives most downforce, not thinking of putting a bit of rake into the car like we see on the Red Bull.

I think now they have looked at that possibility, It will give them a bit more scope to work with on the car. Not sure if those concepts/theories were in place this weekend, as the back of the Merc floor still looked VERY low, but if they can work out where it 'ends up' on full speed with putting a bit rake into the car it will be interesting. I think they are fast enough to lap with the Ferrari and Red Bull, at least within a very small margin anyhow.

With Silverstone being a much smoother track, be interesting to see where they are next weekend.
I think years of running the car with a low rake setup and the wind tunnel confirming that running it low was the best theoretical model almost blinded them into a solution that works when the track is smooth but completely didn't take into account the results of uneven surfaces and the effect of large curbs.

Silverstone could in theory with the Barcelona spec car be perfect for them and be extremely quick. A few other tracks will behave very similarly as well. But I think Red Bull's higher rake philosophy clearly helps from an all-around point of view, especially in regards to dialing in the car and its operating window. How long it'll take Mercedes to adapt is anyone's guess but they have a season to sort it out now given this year is done and third is pretty much nailed on for constructors.

What's positive and it shows when Hamilton gets a clean race is that it's not that slow even though it's difficult to dial it in. So with a few improvements, it isn't that far away...... with an eye to next season now they should be on it from the start and we could end up with a three-horse race.

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ringo
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Re: Mercedes W13

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carisi2k wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:28 pm
The problem with the Mercedes going down the red bull path is that the W13's suspension concept is the opposite of red bull with a push/pull design vs the RB18's pull/push.
The should be fine with the pullrod. The ferrari has pullrod in the rear and a little rake.
It's interesting how they say the flatter floor has more downforce in the windtunnel. I would think the rake makes the diffuser effectively bigger and the centre of pressure is shifted towards the front of the car.
There is less stall when the car is designed with rake, and there is greater scope for more suspension movement.
For Sure!!

AA_2019
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Re: Mercedes W13

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LilDEF1 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:31 pm
AA_2019 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:13 pm
Watching Toto speak just now after the race, he mentions the development direction they will going to, they will follow the RB direction of developing a car with rake.

Finally acceptance of the concept followed by the fastest car. Probably 5 races too late but better now than 10 races from now.
So is this new higher rake concept something that they gonna introduce this year hopefully in the coming races or next year? I wonder what they'll be bringing in the next race where a lot of teams will be bringing upgrades. If they sticking to the current concept I wonder if a new reinforced floor(one without stays) along with suspension tweaks will finally solve the bouncing. It would be a fast car flat to the ground...
They made a a very small aero tweak at this race to optimise downforce for running the car ever so slightly higher. It was a very minor change.

An upgrade package is supposedly coming at the next race. My guess is that it will move the w13 towards optimising the car for running a somewhat higher floor.

This will be good development and learning. If it works as expected it will help them develop the flawed w13 and also shape the w14 concept for a full on raked floor design like RB.

(In fact with the smooth track at Silverstone, they could even be challenging for the win as a one-off, or maybe I'm just getting delirious)
Why the Ferrari is so fast is a bigger mystery than why the Merc W13 is so slow !

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Mercedes W13

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carisi2k wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:28 pm
The problem with the Mercedes going down the red bull path is that the W13's suspension concept is the opposite of red bull with a push/pull design vs the RB18's pull/push.
Mechanically speaking, there isn't much different in the behaviour. It's just a matter of packaging preference.

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Blackout
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Re: Mercedes W13

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pursue_one's wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:35 pm
Lewis has a low downforce setup in Quali

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVkK40nVEAAAiGC?format=jpg
Yes smaller RW and BW
Image
https://motorsport.nextgen-auto.com/fr/ ... -1/photos/

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ringo
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Re: Mercedes W13

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So I was wondering.. Could Redbull have a sprung floor? and is this allowed by the regulations?
A sprung and damped floor could greatly reduce the impact of bounding and porpoising. Instead of depending solely on the suspension to deal with the porpoising, a suspension can be rigged into the floor.
Those same brackets that we see in the floor of the redbull behind the sidepods may well be damped.
We have already seen the spring and damper in the keel.
Added to that running rake in the car simplifies bouncing as the car will touch down on the keel first before the rear squats to the ground.
I think Mercedes need to investigate this and implement it. Soften the cars suspension and install a suspension in the floor, so that there is a degree of freedom between the floor and chassis under extreme loads.
For Sure!!

algebraist
algebraist
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Lotus 88 was banned for that concept you describe. The cars must be sprung from their wheelbase.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_88

If RB did have such a thing, that would be grounds for protest and immediate disqualification.

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siskue2005
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Re: Mercedes W13

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ringo wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:39 pm
So I was wondering.. Could Redbull have a sprung floor? and is this allowed by the regulations?
A sprung and damped floor could greatly reduce the impact of bounding and porpoising. Instead of depending solely on the suspension to deal with the porpoising, a suspension can be rigged into the floor.
Those same brackets that we see in the floor of the redbull behind the sidepods may well be damped.
We have already seen the spring and damper in the keel.
Added to that running rake in the car simplifies bouncing as the car will touch down on the keel first before the rear squats to the ground.
I think Mercedes need to investigate this and implement it. Soften the cars suspension and install a suspension in the floor, so that there is a degree of freedom between the floor and chassis under extreme loads.
Yes its a possibility
This could be the reason why Redbull are so against the new TD's first point

A Technical Directive has been issued to give guidance to the teams about the measures the FIA intends to take to tackle the problem. These include:

1. Closer scrutiny of the planks and skids, both in terms of their design and the observed wear

2. The definition of a metric, based on the car’s vertical acceleration, that will give a quantitative limit for acceptable level of vertical oscillations. The exact mathematical formula for this metric is still being analysed by the FIA, and the Formula 1 teams have been invited to contribute to this process.

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jagunx51
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Re: Mercedes W13

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:33 pm


Image

Image
............!!!!

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ringo
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Re: Mercedes W13

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algebraist wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:35 pm
Lotus 88 was banned for that concept you describe. The cars must be sprung from their wheelbase.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_88

If RB did have such a thing, that would be grounds for protest and immediate disqualification.
Yes that's the connection to the ground. But the floor isnt connected to the ground and is not suspending the car. The skirt cars of the old days were literally dragging on the ground.
For Sure!!