Red Bull RB18

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etusch
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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If there is skirts at side edges of the floor because of ground affect design I think it is hard to say if there is rake or not.

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Maax70
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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I think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.

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henry
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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And in my opinion rake may be useful since it brings into play the front of the floor and it’s suspension system. But I only say May. I don’t think we’ll find out just what they are doing for a long time, if ever.
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Hoffman900
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Maax70 wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:45 pm
I think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.
There are chassis balance things at play as well, and with these new concepts, I suspect the cars are more front limited from a grip standpoint, and it may be more about getting the cars more pointed at turn in. Much of what F1 is about is aero, but it’s but always about aero.

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Big Tea
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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henry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:17 pm
And in my opinion rake may be useful since it brings into play the front of the floor and it’s suspension system. But I only say May. I don’t think we’ll find out just what they are doing for a long time, if ever.
With different suspension 'hardness' front and rear could it not be used to 'smooth out' the depression (if it is that) causing proposing as it would spread out the difference of the 'wave'? As it would begin at the front, softer suspension take up the movement and the rear would have more movement to disperse the 'pressure'? (wrong tec terms I know)
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Maax70 wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:45 pm
I think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.
True. And then we have to consider the expansion ratio, which means assessing the locations of the venturi peaks under the floor.
If you raise the rear of car in this formula you could actually lose downforce. That's why my original statement was so broad sweeping and hypothetical. Without confirming if they have rake... If they do have it would mean that they are still keeping a strong venturi effect and high average suction across the floor somehow. This would be pure mastery of vortices!
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DutchPanther
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:02 pm
Maax70 wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:45 pm
I think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.
True. And then we have to consider the expansion ratio, which means assessing the locations of the venturi peaks under the floor.
If you raise the rear of car in this formula you could actually lose downforce. That's why my original statement was so broad sweeping and hypothetical. Without confirming if they have rake... If they do have it would mean that they are still keeping a strong venturi effect and high average suction across the floor somehow. This would be pure mastery of vortices!
Something like the Y250 vortex perhaps?
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diffuser
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:27 pm
Maax70 wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:45 pm
I think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.
There are chassis balance things at play as well, and with these new concepts, I suspect the cars are more front limited from a grip standpoint, and it may be more about getting the cars more pointed at turn in. Much of what F1 is about is aero, but it’s but always about aero.
For me the big reason not to use rake is it brings the nose down. That will cut the amount of air available to the floor and send more air up and over the car. Since the diffuser sits right at the rear wheels and the nose is far from the front wheels ...Every cm or rake at the back might drop the nose 2 cms.
Last edited by diffuser on Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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DutchPanther wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:27 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:02 pm
Maax70 wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:45 pm
I think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.
True. And then we have to consider the expansion ratio, which means assessing the locations of the venturi peaks under the floor.
If you raise the rear of car in this formula you could actually lose downforce. That's why my original statement was so broad sweeping and hypothetical. Without confirming if they have rake... If they do have it would mean that they are still keeping a strong venturi effect and high average suction across the floor somehow. This would be pure mastery of vortices!
Something like the Y250 vortex perhaps?
The old Y250 was a big effect on the old cars because of the floor shape. I think with these new cars you dont need it that much and we can tell this by the front wing designs.
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Hoffman900
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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diffuser wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:04 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:27 pm
Maax70 wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:45 pm
I think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.
There are chassis balance things at play as well, and with these new concepts, I suspect the cars are more front limited from a grip standpoint, and it may be more about getting the cars more pointed at turn in. Much of what F1 is about is aero, but it’s but always about aero.
For me the big reason not to use rake is it brings the nose down. That will cut the amount of air available to the floor and send more air up and over the car. Since the diffuser sits right at the rear wheels and the nose is far from the front wheels ...Every cm or rake at the back might drop the nose 2 cms.
Yes and no. We don’t exactly know where the air is going as it hits the front of the car and the rake’s influence without seeing the cfd and wind tunnel data. Anything else is just speculation.

RB could be working their floor intake and wing such that some rake gets the car to turn in better and still get the air where it needs to go.

Early on with these cars, it was clear they were having trouble with understeer and front tire wear. As time has gone on, we’ve seen that even out more and complaints of the car not being pointed enough for Max have seemed to have gone away some.

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Maax70
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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I would not exclude fine tuning with rake, but what I mean is that the philosophy of the car are completely different
Image
Main works on understeer should be done with wings or better with the centre of pressure of the floor. I'm old enough to remember that the last wing car moved forward the centre of pressure to the limit to remove the front wing.
Image. Today there are no skirt to seal the venturi, so it seem that most of the front portion of the floor is dedicated to outwash vanes which I guess are there to provide sealing vortex. So I think we still see huge front wing in the next years. Next topic could be how long we will see coca-cola shape ? Mercedes and Williams did a remarkable effort on it, may be one year later.....

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diffuser
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Maax70 wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:27 am
I would not exclude fine tuning with rake, but what I mean is that the philosophy of the car are completely different
https://imageshack.com/i/pn4KI6VHj
Main works on understeer should be done with wings or better with the centre of pressure of the floor. I'm old enough to remember that the last wing car moved forward the centre of pressure to the limit to remove the front wing.
https://imageshack.com/i/pnFJAnbuj . Today there are no skirt to seal the venturi, so it seem that most of the front portion of the floor is dedicated to outwash vanes which I guess are there to provide sealing vortex. So I think we still see huge front wing in the next years. Next topic could be how long we will see coca-cola shape ? Mercedes and Williams did a remarkable effort on it, may be one year later.....
I hadn't thought about vertices to seal the floor. Most teams have slots of some kind mid way to the rear of the car or have manipulated the floor edges with slots, lips or ripples on the side to seal it.

I thought the main reason to release air at the front side of the floor was to create downforce there. The fins that catch the air at the openning of the floor, guide the air out the side, have a wavy/curved shape in in them. This force the air to accelerate to attempt to exit the floor at the same time as the air passing over the floor. The acceleration drops the pressure of the air under floor and creates df. The accelerated air going out the side will create a suction at the front and pull in more air there.

hecti
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Image

The rake discussion is interesting, but the fact that in the above image redbull have increased the area of the tunnel intakes, we can probably assume that their understanding of the flows, in simulation and reality, are well understood and they have now decided to add some rake to benefit the lower speed corner performance The added volume of air in the central section(s) is just an optimization of their design.

This may also prove to be the reason why the "hole" in the diffuser has also grown (image below), in order to bleed of the added volume of air in the tunnels and prevent bouncing/porpoising at high speeds:

Image

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diffuser
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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hecti wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:52 pm
https://i.imgur.com/HTo0gn7.jpg

The rake discussion is interesting, but the fact that in the above image redbull have increased the area of the tunnel intakes, we can probably assume that their understanding of the flows, in simulation and reality, are well understood and they have now decided to add some rake to benefit the lower speed corner performance The added volume of air in the central section(s) is just an optimization of their design.

This may also prove to be the reason why the "hole" in the diffuser has also grown (image below), in order to bleed of the added volume of air in the tunnels and prevent bouncing/porpoising at high speeds:

https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... loor-1.jpg
Still think you need to find more pictures of rake than the one of the car exiting the garage. Which, for all we know, might have just been raised in the rear to test something. We have no evidence that this didn't drop back down to regular high after it travel 1cm after this picture was taken. Even your picture of the new larger diffuser openning has no rake.

Henk_v
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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"Rake" as I understand it, is using suspention to elevate the entire back of a flat floor design rule to have said flat floor work as a diffuser, getting some downforce with low drag. It is a workaround to a rule and not a design goal. It made flat floor cars pointy, because it lowered the front wing in a car rule in which a lower wing was better.

As the flat floor is no longer there and most of the floor is now intricately designed, rake is not really relevant is it? It could only apply to the plank area. And even then, would the floor edge be a means of judging any rake of the plank? Im not familiar with the exact rules on the floor edge positioning relative to the plank, but maybe they are not in the same plane at all.