There are chassis balance things at play as well, and with these new concepts, I suspect the cars are more front limited from a grip standpoint, and it may be more about getting the cars more pointed at turn in. Much of what F1 is about is aero, but it’s but always about aero.Maax70 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:45 pmI think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.
With different suspension 'hardness' front and rear could it not be used to 'smooth out' the depression (if it is that) causing proposing as it would spread out the difference of the 'wave'? As it would begin at the front, softer suspension take up the movement and the rear would have more movement to disperse the 'pressure'? (wrong tec terms I know)
True. And then we have to consider the expansion ratio, which means assessing the locations of the venturi peaks under the floor.Maax70 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:45 pmI think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.
Something like the Y250 vortex perhaps?PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:02 pmTrue. And then we have to consider the expansion ratio, which means assessing the locations of the venturi peaks under the floor.Maax70 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:45 pmI think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.
If you raise the rear of car in this formula you could actually lose downforce. That's why my original statement was so broad sweeping and hypothetical. Without confirming if they have rake... If they do have it would mean that they are still keeping a strong venturi effect and high average suction across the floor somehow. This would be pure mastery of vortices!
For me the big reason not to use rake is it brings the nose down. That will cut the amount of air available to the floor and send more air up and over the car. Since the diffuser sits right at the rear wheels and the nose is far from the front wheels ...Every cm or rake at the back might drop the nose 2 cms.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:27 pmThere are chassis balance things at play as well, and with these new concepts, I suspect the cars are more front limited from a grip standpoint, and it may be more about getting the cars more pointed at turn in. Much of what F1 is about is aero, but it’s but always about aero.Maax70 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:45 pmI think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.
The old Y250 was a big effect on the old cars because of the floor shape. I think with these new cars you dont need it that much and we can tell this by the front wing designs.DutchPanther wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:27 pmSomething like the Y250 vortex perhaps?PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:02 pmTrue. And then we have to consider the expansion ratio, which means assessing the locations of the venturi peaks under the floor.Maax70 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:45 pmI think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.
If you raise the rear of car in this formula you could actually lose downforce. That's why my original statement was so broad sweeping and hypothetical. Without confirming if they have rake... If they do have it would mean that they are still keeping a strong venturi effect and high average suction across the floor somehow. This would be pure mastery of vortices!
Yes and no. We don’t exactly know where the air is going as it hits the front of the car and the rake’s influence without seeing the cfd and wind tunnel data. Anything else is just speculation.diffuser wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:04 amFor me the big reason not to use rake is it brings the nose down. That will cut the amount of air available to the floor and send more air up and over the car. Since the diffuser sits right at the rear wheels and the nose is far from the front wheels ...Every cm or rake at the back might drop the nose 2 cms.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:27 pmThere are chassis balance things at play as well, and with these new concepts, I suspect the cars are more front limited from a grip standpoint, and it may be more about getting the cars more pointed at turn in. Much of what F1 is about is aero, but it’s but always about aero.Maax70 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:45 pmI think the concept of the rake was justified by the flat floor regulation, it generate a sort of venturi working on suspensions height and managing vortex to seal the area. I don't see the need to have any rake now that it is possible create venturi duct inside the floor. So, forgetting for a moment the purposing, better to lower the floor as much as possible. I think that comparing photos '21 vs '22 it is remarkable the difference. We may see now a little rake during braking or from some particular view, but in my opinion the rake is no more on the spot.
I hadn't thought about vertices to seal the floor. Most teams have slots of some kind mid way to the rear of the car or have manipulated the floor edges with slots, lips or ripples on the side to seal it.Maax70 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:27 amI would not exclude fine tuning with rake, but what I mean is that the philosophy of the car are completely different
https://imageshack.com/i/pn4KI6VHj
Main works on understeer should be done with wings or better with the centre of pressure of the floor. I'm old enough to remember that the last wing car moved forward the centre of pressure to the limit to remove the front wing.
https://imageshack.com/i/pnFJAnbuj . Today there are no skirt to seal the venturi, so it seem that most of the front portion of the floor is dedicated to outwash vanes which I guess are there to provide sealing vortex. So I think we still see huge front wing in the next years. Next topic could be how long we will see coca-cola shape ? Mercedes and Williams did a remarkable effort on it, may be one year later.....
Still think you need to find more pictures of rake than the one of the car exiting the garage. Which, for all we know, might have just been raised in the rear to test something. We have no evidence that this didn't drop back down to regular high after it travel 1cm after this picture was taken. Even your picture of the new larger diffuser openning has no rake.hecti wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:52 pmhttps://i.imgur.com/HTo0gn7.jpg
The rake discussion is interesting, but the fact that in the above image redbull have increased the area of the tunnel intakes, we can probably assume that their understanding of the flows, in simulation and reality, are well understood and they have now decided to add some rake to benefit the lower speed corner performance The added volume of air in the central section(s) is just an optimization of their design.
This may also prove to be the reason why the "hole" in the diffuser has also grown (image below), in order to bleed of the added volume of air in the tunnels and prevent bouncing/porpoising at high speeds:
https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... loor-1.jpg