Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
AR3-GP
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Can anybody identify the compressor from these images? To settle the split turbo debate?

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:01 pm
Can anybody identify the compressor from these images? To settle the split turbo debate?
We can narrow it down. In the last picture the intake to the compressor is visible (yellow line and arrow). It's angled backwards and would at least put the compressor inside the V if it's split. Or it goes through the V to feed it at the back. However in that case it's not clear how the charged air gets back to the intercooler at the front, keeping in mind the H is also inside the V.

chaoticflounder
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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To me, it actually looks like it is running a split turbo but the compressor is turned around on its rotational axis with the intake facing rearward (airfilter and intake going to interior of V) and the output being furthest forward (indicated by the charge air pipes going up). It looks like the volute / stator housing may be a structural component and tie into the main block for support and have a bearing in the center to support the main turbo / MGU-H shaft (center shiny bit with foil / 3 fasterners). Just my theory from seeing this.

C

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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From the front view there is too much timing gear cover visible for it to be a front compressor.

From the side view the path of the inlet doesn't seem to align with a front compressor either.

So the compressor is further back or takes a different shape.

Could be a twin screw compressor.
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aleks_ader
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Twin screw? With static stator maybe. Rules forbit 2 rotational axises. Still TE and rotational doesnt make sense. What a mystery. More picture we get more confused i m. :wtf: Work of art really.
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ferkan
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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From last picture I would say its split turbo facing other way around from other split designs.

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aleks_ader
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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That i m also thinking. But Whole "reaction engine" heat exchanger boggles mine mind. i think there more to it how they package the outer scroll.
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

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aleks_ader
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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EDIT: If compressor is really inverted... Then theoretically they could made front side more more recessed into Vee to make more frontal space for heat exchanger. Furthermore u can with very long and small dia motor reduce height of main axis of that split turbo and lower CofG even more.

So with INVERTED SPLIT COMPRESSOR u get benefits of both worlds.

You get lower CoFG of non split turbo and more compact piping and overall ease of use of "convectional" split turbo.

EDIT2: Huge assumption tho...
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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chaoticflounder wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:20 pm
To me, it actually looks like it is running a split turbo but the compressor is turned around on its rotational axis with the intake facing rearward (airfilter and intake going to interior of V) and the output being furthest forward (indicated by the charge air pipes going up). It looks like the volute / stator housing may be a structural component and tie into the main block for support and have a bearing in the center to support the main turbo / MGU-H shaft (center shiny bit with foil / 3 fasterners). Just my theory from seeing this.

C
That is what I suggested some time ago, possibility of a split turbo being used with the drive-shaft still going through the compressor intake by the compressor being turned around with intake facing the 'H'. A split turbo but much shorter then the other set-ups (compressor inside the vee). But still FERRARI is the only one of the four that did not officially confirm if it is a split turbo or not, What was officially said was that their new turbo configuration was unlike any of the other three (turbine at rear end of engine, compressor at front end of engine with the 'H' in between).

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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This idea was around. I had it too. But the main thing is when you look at the front of the engine you are not seeing the rim of the compressor housing any at all. Surely the compressor diameter cannot be that small? On the honda, Renault and Mercedes the circumference of the compressor is visible. Not so on the Ferrari. The compressor is hidden somewhere or in a low diamteter form.
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aleks_ader
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hmm yeah zealot kinda agree there.

To make all that inverted discussion and even inside vee discussions credible can u make it work with compact design?
Given previous Honda gen 1 and Ferrari gen 1 interactions. No. Also all new "spli" Pu`s have quite big footprint there as u said.
Oil tank in this case would cover whole compressor quite nicely, almost too perfectly. I doubt in such coincidences. :D
Furthermore. Ferrari developed back turbo trough years and they understand its dynamic quite well.
I assume flow direction at compressor is very important. At current airbox design there would quite a bend towards it if design was split and inverted. Does Ferrari also integrates variable entry vane design into compressor also? Then i look Mercs and Honda evolution in that area. I see on photos how gentle their entry piping towards compressor is. Also quite long.
Image
Image
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saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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‘’Why the FERRARI COMPRESSOR intake cannot be seen in any pictures of the front of the engine so far’’ While still to this day there have been nothing official from FERRARI re the configuration of the turbo adopted, which means anything said/pushed out is just an opinion other than that of FERRARI officially. Those parts of the written press regarded as being nearest to FERRARI, Around six months before the introduction of the 2022 power unit were talking about FERRARI having the ambition to ‘’introduce the compressor inside the intake box with unprecedented configuration of the upper part of the 6cylinder engine’’. This was what lead me to change my mind that FERRARI had after all split their turbo with the 'h' in between, but the configuration set up chosen is much shorter than what is adopted by the other three, if this is the configuration adopted, there is no doubt that they have obtained an advantage in both weight and compactness.

Jozsusz
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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So I went to the Hungarian GP and heard the Ferrari's insane wastegate sound of course only on the qualy laps.
Could someone please tell me why only Ferrari has it? (Last year Honda, Renault and even Merc had it)

AR3-GP
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Jozsusz wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:56 pm
So I went to the Hungarian GP and heard the Ferrari's insane wastegate sound of course only on the qualy laps.
Could someone please tell me why only Ferrari has it? (Last year Honda, Renault and even Merc had it)
Currently, Ferrari is the only PU whose exhaust system seems to join the wastegate to the main exhaust at very end of the exhaust pipe. The 3 other manufacturers introduce the wastegate to the exhaust pipe much further upstream. So I believe this leads to the difference in sound that you observe. For Ferrari the wastegate is emitting sound at the tailpipe exit. For the others, its muffled by the upstream introduction.

You can see the wastegate joining the exhaust here
Image

For comparison, Honda,Merc,Renault don't have a visible wastegate outlet as it merges with the main exhaust further upstream:

Honda:
Image

Merc:
Image

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Jozsusz wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:56 pm
So I went to the Hungarian GP and heard the Ferrari's insane wastegate sound of course only on the qualy laps.
Could someone please tell me why only Ferrari has it? (Last year Honda, Renault and even Merc had it)
The engine mapping they use in qualifying is the same they use during the race. contrary to what was pushed out, waste-gate open mode is still being used after the mandatory 'one single engine map' for qualifying and race.