2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
617
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

gruntguru wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 00:05
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle....
... time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
in this time the PU behaviour can amount to a self-modulation - its extent mandated by the rules
eg what tends to happen with wheel-spin ie rpm change

such behaviour was first limited by 'mapping' rules nearly 20 years ago - before we had MGU-Ks slaved to the ICE
the rules were extended for the present F1 ....
because of the greatly increased MGU-K and reduced ICE they will need review and further extension

the rules mandate behaviours programmed - but not necessarily transient behaviours due to eg dynamic effects
'transient behaviours due to dynamic effects' - are unknown to F1, aren't they ??
(ok less scope here than eg with smaller individual wheel drives)

which of the new MGU-K and the new ICE is the tail - and which is the dog ?

the F1 MGU-K could be similar to the FE unit (but FE doesn't have 8-speed mechanical transmission)

johnny comelately
110
Joined: 10 Apr 2015, 00:55
Location: Australia

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 10:03
gruntguru wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 00:05
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle....
... time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
in this time the PU behaviour can amount to a self-modulation - its extent mandated by the rules
eg what tends to happen with wheel-spin ie rpm change

such behaviour was first limited by 'mapping' rules nearly 20 years ago - before we had MGU-Ks slaved to the ICE
the rules were extended for the present F1 ....
because of the greatly increased MGU-K and reduced ICE they will need review and further extension

the rules mandate behaviours programmed - but not necessarily transient behaviours due to eg dynamic effects
'transient behaviours due to dynamic effects' - are unknown to F1, aren't they ??
(ok less scope here than eg with smaller individual wheel drives)

which of the new MGU-K and the new ICE is the tail - and which is the dog ?

the F1 MGU-K could be similar to the FE unit (but FE doesn't have 8-speed mechanical transmission)
MGU-K - ICE = WAG*0

User avatar
Red Rock Mutley
11
Joined: 28 Jul 2018, 17:04

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

gruntguru wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 00:05
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle. If the cars have more grip and less power there will be a reduction in the skill level required to control the car.

At a simplistic level you can think of this as time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
It's an interesting observation, as the obvious gaming of the new ruleset further removes the throttle pedal from the action of the throttle. Run the ICE wide open for as much of the lap as possible while modulating PU power output as necessary by harvesting electrical energy. At least in qualifying. I did wonder how much energy is available in these other than WOT scenarios. And whether the terrifying high-speed corner spins are from the teams already deploying aggressive harvest strategies

User avatar
Big Tea
99
Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

I wonder if heavier flywheels would be advantageous now? I know it has all been about less mass, but if there is going to be a lag, and longer 'coast' would it even out if the engine speed was kept up a little?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

johnny comelately
110
Joined: 10 Apr 2015, 00:55
Location: Australia

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Red Rock Mutley wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 11:49
gruntguru wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 00:05
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle. If the cars have more grip and less power there will be a reduction in the skill level required to control the car.

At a simplistic level you can think of this as time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
It's an interesting observation, as the obvious gaming of the new ruleset further removes the throttle pedal from the action of the throttle. Run the ICE wide open for as much of the lap as possible while modulating PU power output as necessary by harvesting electrical energy. At least in qualifying. I did wonder how much energy is available in these other than WOT scenarios. And whether the terrifying high-speed corner spins are from the teams already deploying aggressive harvest strategies
You can have a job for showing "laterality" :wink:

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Red Rock Mutley wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 11:49
gruntguru wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 00:05
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle. If the cars have more grip and less power there will be a reduction in the skill level required to control the car.

At a simplistic level you can think of this as time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
It's an interesting observation, as the obvious gaming of the new ruleset further removes the throttle pedal from the action of the throttle. Run the ICE wide open for as much of the lap as possible while modulating PU power output as necessary by harvesting electrical energy. At least in qualifying. I did wonder how much energy is available in these other than WOT scenarios. And whether the terrifying high-speed corner spins are from the teams already deploying aggressive harvest strategies
That is what I believe Ferrari were doing in 2019 (and is the reason for the specificity of the fuelling/throttle regulations as they currently stand). Neither the FIA or Ferrari have ever mentioned anything around the “assisting with further research” comments contained in the press release from that time. The twin battery concept that they employed at the time would also play into that, as the architecture of one could be designed to be better suited to a short, sharp charge/discharge event that would improve acceleration out of corners, with the other being developed towards a slower, longer discharge.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Tommy Cookers
617
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Big Tea wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 12:19
I wonder if heavier flywheels would be advantageous now? I know it has all been about less mass, but if there is going to be a lag, and longer 'coast' would it even out if the engine speed was kept up a little?
we might think that the bigger MGU-K will increase the PU inertia (ok lower K machine rpm & geartrain ratio can help)
and that any increase in PU inertia is disadvantageous wrt gear-shifts

or the K machine could be suitably coupled to the crankshaft - so it could eg be independently slowed ahead of up-shifts
to reduce MU-K rpm by 13% could take 10-20 millisec ie 2-4 crankshaft revs/available geartrain backlash/compliance
or a lesser system would still be beneficial

yes one way of increasing the recovery is to make heavier the car (or its road wheels or some flywheel somewhere)
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 24 Aug 2022, 15:36, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Holm86
243
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 03:37
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Big Tea wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 12:19
I wonder if heavier flywheels would be advantageous now? I know it has all been about less mass, but if there is going to be a lag, and longer 'coast' would it even out if the engine speed was kept up a little?
Don't think that would help much. As soon as you're off the throttle, and theres no combustion, the turbo RPM will drop off, no matter if the engine rpm drops slower due to a heavier flywheel.

But maybe if you had a flywheel on the turbo axle?

But I still think some sort of anti-lag system is more advantageous, and I doubt you would have to use much fuel for it

johnny comelately
110
Joined: 10 Apr 2015, 00:55
Location: Australia

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Big Tea wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 12:19
I wonder if heavier flywheels would be advantageous now? I know it has all been about less mass, but if there is going to be a lag, and longer 'coast' would it even out if the engine speed was kept up a little?
Curse you for mentioning heavier flywheels :wink:
More cold water over here please

User avatar
vorticism
323
Joined: 01 Mar 2022, 20:20

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Is this the first time such a lean combustion model will be paired with traditional turbocharging?

Unrelated, 3D printed exhaust components defined in these new regs:

Image
𓄀

User avatar
djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

vorticism wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 20:44


Unrelated, 3D printed exhaust components defined in these new regs:

https://i.imgur.com/EpTZaAo.png
Why on earth have they regulated that?
"In downforce we trust"

johnny comelately
110
Joined: 10 Apr 2015, 00:55
Location: Australia

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

djos wrote:
25 Aug 2022, 00:52
vorticism wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 20:44


Unrelated, 3D printed exhaust components defined in these new regs:

https://i.imgur.com/EpTZaAo.png
Why on earth have they regulated that?
Hear here

User avatar
Zynerji
111
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

djos wrote:
25 Aug 2022, 00:52
vorticism wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 20:44


Unrelated, 3D printed exhaust components defined in these new regs:

https://i.imgur.com/EpTZaAo.png
Why on earth have they regulated that?
Dumb AF. They should make 3d printed parts exempt from the cost cap. If anything will bring down the long term cost in F1 manufacturing it will be additive machines.

User avatar
djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Zynerji wrote:
25 Aug 2022, 02:09
djos wrote:
25 Aug 2022, 00:52
vorticism wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 20:44


Unrelated, 3D printed exhaust components defined in these new regs:

https://i.imgur.com/EpTZaAo.png
Why on earth have they regulated that?
Dumb AF. They should make 3d printed parts exempt from the cost cap. If anything will bring down the long term cost in F1 manufacturing it will be additive machines.
Not wrong, it's just baffling!
"In downforce we trust"

wuzak
434
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Red Rock Mutley wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 11:49
gruntguru wrote:
24 Aug 2022, 00:05
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle. If the cars have more grip and less power there will be a reduction in the skill level required to control the car.

At a simplistic level you can think of this as time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
It's an interesting observation, as the obvious gaming of the new ruleset further removes the throttle pedal from the action of the throttle. Run the ICE wide open for as much of the lap as possible while modulating PU power output as necessary by harvesting electrical energy. At least in qualifying. I did wonder how much energy is available in these other than WOT scenarios. And whether the terrifying high-speed corner spins are from the teams already deploying aggressive harvest strategies
How much time is an F1 car not at full throttle or braking?

You have to wonder what power they could recover using this strategy.

At current the ICE is capable of 600kW+ and the MGUK can recover/deploy 120kW.

For 2026 that will be 400kW ICE/350kW MGUK. I would think recovering full power from the MGUK would be difficult, even when the ICE is at full power.

Post Reply