2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:05 pm
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle....
... time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
in this time the PU behaviour can amount to a self-modulation - its extent mandated by the rules
eg what tends to happen with wheel-spin ie rpm change

such behaviour was first limited by 'mapping' rules nearly 20 years ago - before we had MGU-Ks slaved to the ICE
the rules were extended for the present F1 ....
because of the greatly increased MGU-K and reduced ICE they will need review and further extension

the rules mandate behaviours programmed - but not necessarily transient behaviours due to eg dynamic effects
'transient behaviours due to dynamic effects' - are unknown to F1, aren't they ??
(ok less scope here than eg with smaller individual wheel drives)

which of the new MGU-K and the new ICE is the tail - and which is the dog ?

the F1 MGU-K could be similar to the FE unit (but FE doesn't have 8-speed mechanical transmission)

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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:03 am
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:05 pm
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle....
... time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
in this time the PU behaviour can amount to a self-modulation - its extent mandated by the rules
eg what tends to happen with wheel-spin ie rpm change

such behaviour was first limited by 'mapping' rules nearly 20 years ago - before we had MGU-Ks slaved to the ICE
the rules were extended for the present F1 ....
because of the greatly increased MGU-K and reduced ICE they will need review and further extension

the rules mandate behaviours programmed - but not necessarily transient behaviours due to eg dynamic effects
'transient behaviours due to dynamic effects' - are unknown to F1, aren't they ??
(ok less scope here than eg with smaller individual wheel drives)

which of the new MGU-K and the new ICE is the tail - and which is the dog ?

the F1 MGU-K could be similar to the FE unit (but FE doesn't have 8-speed mechanical transmission)
MGU-K - ICE = WAG*0

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Red Rock Mutley
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:05 pm
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle. If the cars have more grip and less power there will be a reduction in the skill level required to control the car.

At a simplistic level you can think of this as time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
It's an interesting observation, as the obvious gaming of the new ruleset further removes the throttle pedal from the action of the throttle. Run the ICE wide open for as much of the lap as possible while modulating PU power output as necessary by harvesting electrical energy. At least in qualifying. I did wonder how much energy is available in these other than WOT scenarios. And whether the terrifying high-speed corner spins are from the teams already deploying aggressive harvest strategies

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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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I wonder if heavier flywheels would be advantageous now? I know it has all been about less mass, but if there is going to be a lag, and longer 'coast' would it even out if the engine speed was kept up a little?
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Red Rock Mutley wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:49 am
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:05 pm
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle. If the cars have more grip and less power there will be a reduction in the skill level required to control the car.

At a simplistic level you can think of this as time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
It's an interesting observation, as the obvious gaming of the new ruleset further removes the throttle pedal from the action of the throttle. Run the ICE wide open for as much of the lap as possible while modulating PU power output as necessary by harvesting electrical energy. At least in qualifying. I did wonder how much energy is available in these other than WOT scenarios. And whether the terrifying high-speed corner spins are from the teams already deploying aggressive harvest strategies
You can have a job for showing "laterality" :wink:

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Stu
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Red Rock Mutley wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:49 am
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:05 pm
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle. If the cars have more grip and less power there will be a reduction in the skill level required to control the car.

At a simplistic level you can think of this as time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
It's an interesting observation, as the obvious gaming of the new ruleset further removes the throttle pedal from the action of the throttle. Run the ICE wide open for as much of the lap as possible while modulating PU power output as necessary by harvesting electrical energy. At least in qualifying. I did wonder how much energy is available in these other than WOT scenarios. And whether the terrifying high-speed corner spins are from the teams already deploying aggressive harvest strategies
That is what I believe Ferrari were doing in 2019 (and is the reason for the specificity of the fuelling/throttle regulations as they currently stand). Neither the FIA or Ferrari have ever mentioned anything around the “assisting with further research” comments contained in the press release from that time. The twin battery concept that they employed at the time would also play into that, as the architecture of one could be designed to be better suited to a short, sharp charge/discharge event that would improve acceleration out of corners, with the other being developed towards a slower, longer discharge.
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:19 am
I wonder if heavier flywheels would be advantageous now? I know it has all been about less mass, but if there is going to be a lag, and longer 'coast' would it even out if the engine speed was kept up a little?
we might think that the bigger MGU-K will increase the PU inertia (ok lower K machine rpm & geartrain ratio can help)
and that any increase in PU inertia is disadvantageous wrt gear-shifts

or the K machine could be suitably coupled to the crankshaft - so it could eg be independently slowed ahead of up-shifts
to reduce MU-K rpm by 13% could take 10-20 millisec ie 2-4 crankshaft revs/available geartrain backlash/compliance
or a lesser system would still be beneficial

yes one way of increasing the recovery is to make heavier the car (or its road wheels or some flywheel somewhere)
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Holm86
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:19 am
I wonder if heavier flywheels would be advantageous now? I know it has all been about less mass, but if there is going to be a lag, and longer 'coast' would it even out if the engine speed was kept up a little?
Don't think that would help much. As soon as you're off the throttle, and theres no combustion, the turbo RPM will drop off, no matter if the engine rpm drops slower due to a heavier flywheel.

But maybe if you had a flywheel on the turbo axle?

But I still think some sort of anti-lag system is more advantageous, and I doubt you would have to use much fuel for it

johnny comelately
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:19 am
I wonder if heavier flywheels would be advantageous now? I know it has all been about less mass, but if there is going to be a lag, and longer 'coast' would it even out if the engine speed was kept up a little?
Curse you for mentioning heavier flywheels :wink:
More cold water over here please

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vorticism
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Is this the first time such a lean combustion model will be paired with traditional turbocharging?

Unrelated, 3D printed exhaust components defined in these new regs:

Image

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djos
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:44 pm


Unrelated, 3D printed exhaust components defined in these new regs:

https://i.imgur.com/EpTZaAo.png
Why on earth have they regulated that?
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

johnny comelately
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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djos wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:52 pm
vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:44 pm


Unrelated, 3D printed exhaust components defined in these new regs:

https://i.imgur.com/EpTZaAo.png
Why on earth have they regulated that?
Hear here

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Zynerji
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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djos wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:52 pm
vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:44 pm


Unrelated, 3D printed exhaust components defined in these new regs:

https://i.imgur.com/EpTZaAo.png
Why on earth have they regulated that?
Dumb AF. They should make 3d printed parts exempt from the cost cap. If anything will bring down the long term cost in F1 manufacturing it will be additive machines.

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djos
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:09 am
djos wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:52 pm
vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:44 pm


Unrelated, 3D printed exhaust components defined in these new regs:

https://i.imgur.com/EpTZaAo.png
Why on earth have they regulated that?
Dumb AF. They should make 3d printed parts exempt from the cost cap. If anything will bring down the long term cost in F1 manufacturing it will be additive machines.
Not wrong, it's just baffling!
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Red Rock Mutley wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:49 am
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:05 pm
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle. If the cars have more grip and less power there will be a reduction in the skill level required to control the car.

At a simplistic level you can think of this as time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
It's an interesting observation, as the obvious gaming of the new ruleset further removes the throttle pedal from the action of the throttle. Run the ICE wide open for as much of the lap as possible while modulating PU power output as necessary by harvesting electrical energy. At least in qualifying. I did wonder how much energy is available in these other than WOT scenarios. And whether the terrifying high-speed corner spins are from the teams already deploying aggressive harvest strategies
How much time is an F1 car not at full throttle or braking?

You have to wonder what power they could recover using this strategy.

At current the ICE is capable of 600kW+ and the MGUK can recover/deploy 120kW.

For 2026 that will be 400kW ICE/350kW MGUK. I would think recovering full power from the MGUK would be difficult, even when the ICE is at full power.