CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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FDD
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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Any opinion that F1-75 is struggling from the new TD?

Andi76
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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FDD wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 3:37 pm
Any opinion that F1-75 is struggling from the new TD?
I do not think so. Spa is a special track that requires a special set-up. Also teams run their cars as high as possible anyway, because of the compression at Eau Rouge, the bumps at 15 and the kerbs at 14. Because of that there was no real impact of this TD. One could now think that the RB probably is the only car that works at high ride heights, but Ferrari has already proven that their car also works well at high ride height, too. But it was visible that Red Bull was able to run their cars lower than the competition. They also still use some rake and their aero is based around that, what probably has resulted in aerodynamics that in general work better at higher ride heights(compared to the competition). That probably has given them an advantage in downforce and tyre degradation.

I think there is something about their suspension that they can run their car lower. I have the feeling that they also have found something in the summer break in relation to the tyres and how make maximum use of them. With the new cars suspension set-up and making maximum use of the tyres can make a huge difference. Two main determinants are tyre temperature and contact frequency. These work in opposite directions. As temperature rises, the compound becomes softer. As contact frequencies rise, the compound becomes harder. Getting to the point at which the tyres achieves its ideal state is therefore a delicate balancing act. The higher the contact frequency, the more temperature you need to compensate in order to keep the tyre at its intended compound softness. You must control these variables. Contact frequency is about how the loads react upon the rubber. Because rubber is a viscoelastic material, the way it reacts is not consistent. Up to a point the rubber will accept incoming energy and react against it, trying to spring back in the opposite direction to the load and thereby creating grip. Beyond that point the rubber cannot regain shape quickly enough to absorb the next input of load. This has the effect of stiffening and hardening the compound, breaking the process down and causing the tyre to slide. Tyre temperature is largely to do with the amount of energy the tyre is absorbing - though track temperature plays a significant part. As the tyre accepts the loads, so the energy is absorbed and this creates heat. Keeping the tyre exactly at the point where it achieves its vitreous transition and thereby achieves its ideal, intended compound softness all the time is a balancing act and can obviously give a massive advantage. The season has shown that Ferrari has problems in that area, as does Mercedes. Red Bull understands this best and in Spa they probably completely nailed it. With the new tyres this is very hard as the ideal window where the contact frequency is in harmony with temperature is very narrow. I think Red Bull further improved their understanding. This and being able to run their car lower than the competition was responsible for them being exceptionally fast. I can be wrong, but i think Red Bulls huge superiority at Spa was track related and multiplied by several factors. It will be closer in Zandvort, but i think Red Bull has found something in relation to tyres and suspension that gives them an advantage and they now have the fastest car. Reshaping their engine-cover , and adapting something of the "Ferrari-School of thinking" to their concept(maximise airflow to the beamwing and rear-wing), may have helped downforce and traction, too.

There are also rumours about that RB/Honda made a huge step with their Powertrain, while Ferrari made a step back with their last evolution or reduced the power for reliability reasons. In terms of Ferrari i do not think there is any truth in these rumours, as the gap to the other teams did not really change.

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Vanja #66
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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Brief and one-time return to limited CFD trials like about a year ago, this time for W14. The CFD simulation is not an accurate representation of the whole car and is directed at understanding, to the best of simulations "ability" (ie comparability to actual car), of the major aerodynamic phenomena surrounding W14 sidepod design including the mid wing and it's influence. Some comparisons will be made to W13 launch spec, just as a curiosity. Also note, to try and reduce floor leading edge separation I made a change to front wing 3rd flap angle and separation was reduced, but not eliminated.

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There are several interesting elements to take note of. First of all, slight changes to pressure distribution on sidepods themselves, made by clear geometry transition from slanted to vertical and resulting radii transition. This speeds up the airflow, creating lift - like all sidepods experience somewhere on their surface. Along with that, sidepods also seem to have a geometry that reduces external drag (especially compared to W13 raced zeropods).

Another change in pressure distribution is the rear tyre, where the stagnation zone is clearly smaller. This is influenced by the mid-wing-shed-vortex. While actual car is likely to experience a different influence of this vortex (I believe it hits the tyre slightly lower) it remains and could be an important feature. Why I believe it hits the tyre lower can be seen on this plot:

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This vortex in this simulation is also dangerously close to the rear wing and I am certain this would not be the case in reality. It could result in unacceptable losses and I believe wings downwash is stronger and drawing the vortex further down. If it hits the tyre lower, it could also reduce rear tyre lift along with rear tyre drag - sounds like something worth achieving. :)

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The downwash is very strong even in this simulation, as expected. It looks like the idea of the mid wing is to draw a large amount of clean air towards the diffuser fences. With proper conditioning, it could help diffuser performance significantly and ensure rear tyre squirt doesn't come close to the diffuser. Another concept worth chasing.

Seeing how W13 rear bodywork was developed around zeropods, it certainly looks like minimising their size could lead to massive diffuser gains, since you are now drawing a lot of clean and high-energy air where it can generate a lot of downforce. W14 sidepods look to be increased in size to tackle floor structural instability issues, but only to a minimum needed so the downwash is the least disturbed.

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Final plot is something I want to bring note to - mid wing also generates decent drag. Entire rear/top surface is low pressure, while front/bottom is slightly above ambient. If there was a critical situation with W13 ride height, where combined effect of downwash air and diffuser performance is nowhere near as effective as expected due to higher ride height - you are still stuck with extra drag of the mid wing. This was certainly one of the causes of high drag of W13, along with big front and rear wing angles and that traditionally big airbox.

All in all, W14 is definitely an improvement over W13 regarding drag (which the team mentioned and we have here confirmed) and if Mercedes manages to extract floor downforce without as much trouble with bouncing, 2023 should be much better for them. How better also depends on the competition.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

OO7
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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I'm surprised the W14 supports better airflow the rear wing with the cooling outlets positioned as they are, unless of course the airflow in the region of the W13 was particularly poor.

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Vanja #66
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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That was never-raced W13 sidepods and jjn9128's base model airbox. Not entirely comparable I must say. :)
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

typhson_lee
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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Question: What do you guys think was the main aim of the mercedes sidepod concept?

Having the "zeropods" or having the midwings.
Last season I always run of the idea they used the zeropods to get around the rules to be still able to run a mid wing. Impling that mercedes thought controlling front tyre wake with a mid wing was adventageous to do it with the sidepods.

Am I right that the midwings are only legal with the zeropods?

Another way to formulate the question would be: Do you guys think, there would be any point in running a "zeropod" without a midwing?

Thanks and hello =D> :wink:

(I thought I had an account here from two years ago, but can't remember the name and passwort resetting doesn't work. I also think I never posted, and if then not more than twice. So I should have said "Hello again" :) )

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Vanja #66
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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typhson_lee wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:58 pm
Question: What do you guys think was the main aim of the mercedes sidepod concept?

Having the "zeropods" or having the midwings.
The way W14 was designed, both are an advantage. Downwash from mid wing and low drag of slim sidepods. Disadvantage is bigger engine cover, but it looks like Merc did a good job with integration.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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Vanja #66
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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ringo wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:27 am
By the way your CFD lacks enough detail to draw any conclusions.
We should be seeing a storm of vortices in those areas that you focus on to draw your conclusions. Instead you show a few strands of stream lines.
It's a welcome effort to visualize. But I can bet if you change the boundaries, change the wind speed, or even increase the mesh and ran over the simulation, the results will not be the same.
You can easily paint any picture you wish with your simulation, once you are not sharing the preparation and the numbers.
So your opinion and your results are as good any one elses opinions on the forum once they have enough experience.
Not reading the disclaimers again I see... :)

Henk_v wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:32 am
Any engineer knows what CFD stands for ;colors for directors :D

Unless you get a lot of time and resources, CFD will say not much.
.
Maybe in the 90s. For the last 10+ years even decent laptops have enough computing power to finish a well-set CFD in 2-3 hours. It all depends on the size of the model and how high fidelity you aim for. If you pursue 95% accuracy it's completely different than going for 99.9%.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Andi76
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:22 am
ringo wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:27 am
By the way your CFD lacks enough detail to draw any conclusions.
We should be seeing a storm of vortices in those areas that you focus on to draw your conclusions. Instead you show a few strands of stream lines.
It's a welcome effort to visualize. But I can bet if you change the boundaries, change the wind speed, or even increase the mesh and ran over the simulation, the results will not be the same.
You can easily paint any picture you wish with your simulation, once you are not sharing the preparation and the numbers.
So your opinion and your results are as good any one elses opinions on the forum once they have enough experience.
Not reading the disclaimers again I see... :)

Henk_v wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:32 am
Any engineer knows what CFD stands for ;colors for directors :D

Unless you get a lot of time and resources, CFD will say not much.
.
Maybe in the 90s. For the last 10+ years even decent laptops have enough computing power to finish a well-set CFD in 2-3 hours. It all depends on the size of the model and how high fidelity you aim for. If you pursue 95% accuracy it's completely different than going for 99.9%.
I think you can put such discussions on file now that Mercedes has declared the concept a failure. Your simulations and analyses already suggested early on that this is a possibility, which actually says everything about the great value of your work and who was right and who was wrong.

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joseff
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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"A bit of CFD work by some students, who posted it on a forum, pretty good forum. They showed that that concept reduced drag."

(edit) aww it's blocked. Go watch from 4:34.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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One more video on side pod differences. You can jump to where he starts the CFD.

I realy thought this Youtuber was Vanja but apprently not. His CFD results look different!

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LM10
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:32 pm
One more video on side pod differences. You can jump to where he starts the CFD.

I realy thought this Youtuber was Vanja but apprently not. His CFD results look different!

https://youtu.be/-YzvnYS_WkA
This, in fact, is the CFD work of Vanja. This Youtuber collaborated with him.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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Hmm. He could be Vanja then! The mystery will unwind soon enough.
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AR3-GP
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:02 pm
Hmm. He could be Vanja then! The mystery will unwind soon enough.
I don't believe there's a mystery :lol:

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vorticism
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Re: CFD - 2022 Ferrari F1-75 (sidepod analysis)

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 3:55 pm
Image
Why are there hot spots (high pressure) on the top of the rear tyres? I'd have thought the opposite would occur there.
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