2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:32 pm
Hence Honda's high cycle frequency H to K power transmission.
no such thing ??
it was K to H - aka 'extra harvest'

EDIT/NOTE TO SELF
as Henry rightly says in the following post - yes there was such a thing
energy from ES to MH/GK repeat cycle to MK aka 'extra deployment'
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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henry
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:35 pm
vorticism wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:32 pm
Hence Honda's high cycle frequency H to K power transmission.
no such thing ??
it was K to H - aka 'extra harvest'
A recent Japanese article mentioned ‘extra deploy’ which is theoretically just as straightforward. We have no way of knowing if it was ever deployed, but then that is true of so much of what happens with these PUs.
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saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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''The energy to the crankshaft is not limited'' - ''So lap 'K' - motoring time is unlimited (by the rules)''. On every lap, the driver has a specific quantity of electric energy he can deploy for a set period of time.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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yamahasho wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:31 pm
So everyone's thinking they're going to do something like this to counteract the turbo lag issue:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... a406_b.jpg

Been used plenty of times in production cars. Or against the regs?

Or perhaps a anti-lag (which I call a blown turbo) by dumping fuel in on deceleration but this sounds implausible because it wastes fuel but who knows.
Isn't that what they have now?

The turbo will not have a motor attached to it.

They may use something like the cold blowing that was used during the blown diffuser days, but that depends on what they come up with for the throttle rules.

yamahasho
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:46 pm
yamahasho wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:31 pm
So everyone's thinking they're going to do something like this to counteract the turbo lag issue:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/523 ... a406_b.jpg

Been used plenty of times in production cars. Or against the regs?

Or perhaps a anti-lag (which I call a blown turbo) by dumping fuel in on deceleration but this sounds implausible because it wastes fuel but who knows.
Isn't that what they have now?

The turbo will not have a motor attached to it.

They may use something like the cold blowing that was used during the blown diffuser days, but that depends on what they come up with for the throttle rules.
Far as I know currently it’s a thermoelectric generator using temperature differences using the hot exhaust gases versus some exotic material for the cold side. Very expensive. I believe it uses that electricity generated back into the system.

But correct wuzak after that, the electricity is used to and motor to keep the shaft spinning. All in one unit. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

Let’s see how it goes with the new rules but far as I can see turbo assist, by spinning up via electric motor or anti lag system by dumping fuel or throttle control on deceleration, is not banned.
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wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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5.5 Turbocharger
5.5.1 Pressure charging may only be affected by the use of a sole single stage, single sided compressor with a single inlet linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly. The compressor blades must be attached to a common hub surface and all air entering the combustion chamber must pass through the single exducer of these blades. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity. The energy of the rotating parts of the turbocharger may not be transferrable to any other component. Only parts approved by the FIA Technical Department may be used. Subject for provision of the Article 17.3.5, the approval of the FIA Technical Department is conditional upon the PU manufacturer, intending to use such parts during a Championship season undertaking not to conclude any exclusivity agreement (see definition article 5.1.30) for the supply of such parts with the supplier of these parts. The approval request form must be sent by the PU Manufacturer to the FIA before the 1st of November of the preceding year.
Cannot transfer energy to or from rotating components?

Also, parts have to be approved by FIA.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:07 am
5.5 Turbocharger
5.5.1 Pressure charging may only be affected by the use of a sole single stage, single sided compressor with a single inlet linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly. The compressor blades must be attached to a common hub surface and all air entering the combustion chamber must pass through the single exducer of these blades. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity. The energy of the rotating parts of the turbocharger may not be transferrable to any other component. Only parts approved by the FIA Technical Department may be used. Subject for provision of the Article 17.3.5, the approval of the FIA Technical Department is conditional upon the PU manufacturer, intending to use such parts during a Championship season undertaking not to conclude any exclusivity agreement (see definition article 5.1.30) for the supply of such parts with the supplier of these parts. The approval request form must be sent by the PU Manufacturer to the FIA before the 1st of November of the preceding year.
Cannot transfer energy to or from rotating components?

Also, parts have to be approved by FIA.
Where is that from? Are there more detailed regulations available now beyond this?

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Holm86
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:19 am
wuzak wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:07 am
5.5 Turbocharger
5.5.1 Pressure charging may only be affected by the use of a sole single stage, single sided compressor with a single inlet linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly. The compressor blades must be attached to a common hub surface and all air entering the combustion chamber must pass through the single exducer of these blades. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity. The energy of the rotating parts of the turbocharger may not be transferrable to any other component. Only parts approved by the FIA Technical Department may be used. Subject for provision of the Article 17.3.5, the approval of the FIA Technical Department is conditional upon the PU manufacturer, intending to use such parts during a Championship season undertaking not to conclude any exclusivity agreement (see definition article 5.1.30) for the supply of such parts with the supplier of these parts. The approval request form must be sent by the PU Manufacturer to the FIA before the 1st of November of the preceding year.
Cannot transfer energy to or from rotating components?

Also, parts have to be approved by FIA.
Where is that from? Are there more detailed regulations available now beyond this?
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -08-16.pdf

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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djos wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:49 pm
No I’m not, I think the tech is super cool, but you are ignoring obvious show stoppers like this:
SOFCs require significant time to reach operating temperature and are slow to respond to changes in electricity demand.
Doesn't seem like a showstopper to me, nor do I think that any but the warm-up time is inherent to the technology.*

F1 needs constant high power. Obviously they wouldn't run the motors directly by only a fuel cell, no FCEV ever worked that way. I believe someone here calculated it before and you need around 400kW constant power at worst (Monza). And enough batteries to buffer for the braking zones.

*Not sure "why the slow to respond" is even there. Obviously you can turn it down quickly by cutting fuel. And if you don't have it turned down to an extended time you can turn it right back up.
I would imagine if such fuel cell tech would happen it would be fully insulated. And any excess heat would be removed (maybe with energy recovery) by extra airflow

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Holm86 wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:22 am
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -08-16.pdf
Thanks.
(Gotta love that the first thing I look at is borked in the TOC. ES is 5.22 not 5.24)

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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So we're down to 73kg of fuel per hour at most. ES remains 4MJ, the K can only harvest 9MJ.
Feels like the 1000hp power unit is just a marketing lie.

Why limit ES and recovery at all, if they are pushing electrification. Makes no sense.

yamahasho
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:07 am
5.5 Turbocharger
5.5.1 Pressure charging may only be affected by the use of a sole single stage, single sided compressor with a single inlet linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly. The compressor blades must be attached to a common hub surface and all air entering the combustion chamber must pass through the single exducer of these blades. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity. The energy of the rotating parts of the turbocharger may not be transferrable to any other component. Only parts approved by the FIA Technical Department may be used. Subject for provision of the Article 17.3.5, the approval of the FIA Technical Department is conditional upon the PU manufacturer, intending to use such parts during a Championship season undertaking not to conclude any exclusivity agreement (see definition article 5.1.30) for the supply of such parts with the supplier of these parts. The approval request form must be sent by the PU Manufacturer to the FIA before the 1st of November of the preceding year.
Cannot transfer energy to or from rotating components?

Also, parts have to be approved by FIA.
Good find, it doesn’t say to OR from it just says TO, so an external motor, which can be made as decoupled, is not getting any energy from the turbine unless the system purposely energizes a current to make it a generator.

But I’m not some f1 engineer, but the wording “energy” can be interpreted heat energy so engineers would no longer recreate the mgu-h. It should say heat and kinetic energy cannot be transferred to any other component.
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djos
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:39 am
djos wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:49 pm
No I’m not, I think the tech is super cool, but you are ignoring obvious show stoppers like this:
SOFCs require significant time to reach operating temperature and are slow to respond to changes in electricity demand.
Doesn't seem like a showstopper to me, nor do I think that any but the warm-up time is inherent to the technology.*

F1 needs constant high power. Obviously they wouldn't run the motors directly by only a fuel cell, no FCEV ever worked that way. I believe someone here calculated it before and you need around 400kW constant power at worst (Monza). And enough batteries to buffer for the braking zones.

*Not sure "why the slow to respond" is even there. Obviously you can turn it down quickly by cutting fuel. And if you don't have it turned down to an extended time you can turn it right back up.
I would imagine if such fuel cell tech would happen it would be fully insulated. And any excess heat would be removed (maybe with energy recovery) by extra airflow
Startup times where the main issue I was referring to. I’ve found a few papers discussing fast start up SOFC units (5mins) but they are tiny 10W cells.

Most of the commercially available units list starting times of Cold 24 hrs and Hot 2 hrs.

https://power.mhi.com/products/sofc/pdf/sofc_en.pdf

Just doesn’t seem very practical to me right now. Especially considering a 210kW unit is 33t (prolly half that when you remove all the turbine heat systems etc).

Ps for reference I used to manage a data centre with 3x 1.1MW 32ltr Cat Diesel generators that only weighed 6t each!
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:56 am
So we're down to 73kg of fuel per hour at most. ES remains 4MJ, the K can only harvest 9MJ.
Depends of fuel. It could be bioethanol or synthetic petrol.

Thus the limit is in MJ/h (coincidentally, it may have been how fuel flow was regulated back when Audi's Diesel was going against Porsche's petrol in LMP1).

mzso wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:56 am
Feels like the 1000hp power unit is just a marketing lie.
Very much so.

Achieving 1000hp would be quite rare on a lap, as, to my mind, the electrical energy will be used mostly when the ICE isn't making much power.

mzso wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:56 am
Why limit ES and recovery at all, if they are pushing electrification. Makes no sense.
9MJ recovery seems like a stretch to me.

johnny comelately
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:07 am
5.5 Turbocharger
5.5.1 Pressure charging may only be affected by the use of a sole single stage, single sided compressor with a single inlet linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly. The compressor blades must be attached to a common hub surface and all air entering the combustion chamber must pass through the single exducer of these blades. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity. The energy of the rotating parts of the turbocharger may not be transferrable to any other component. Only parts approved by the FIA Technical Department may be used. Subject for provision of the Article 17.3.5, the approval of the FIA Technical Department is conditional upon the PU manufacturer, intending to use such parts during a Championship season undertaking not to conclude any exclusivity agreement (see definition article 5.1.30) for the supply of such parts with the supplier of these parts. The approval request form must be sent by the PU Manufacturer to the FIA before the 1st of November of the preceding year.
Cannot transfer energy to or from rotating components?

Also, parts have to be approved by FIA.
= ballast then.