autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
590
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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autogyro wrote:All the shifts are undertaken using induction energy to accelerate or slow to stationary each planetary set annulus and to unlock or lock the sets.
@ autogyro
some would have us believe the USP of the modern F1 transmission is perfect 'hot shifting'
and we know a conventional (epicyclic) automatic will when used for high performance to an extent be hot shifting
ie at these moments torque will be flowing through 2 routes simultaneously, these routes tending to conflict
conflict is tolerable because at least 1 route has a slip characteristic due the hydraulically modulated load on the friction band

does your device in this 'hot shift' case transmit torque by some equivalent friction modulation ?
(of the slip/torque characteristic one of the conflicting torque paths)

or by 'induction energy' directly ?
(ie fundamentally the 'cutting' linkage of electromagnetic flux being a torque path)
if so, what % of the transmitted torque comes from flux cutting ?

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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The shifts are Constantly Variable balancing electro magnetic force(flux cutting) with mechanical force (torque transfer from ICE to output load). The percentage is therefore also CV.

The annulus of the lower gear disengages from its locked to casing stationary condition.
It is driven electrically up to a speed that balances with the rest of its planetary set and then it is locked to the set.
As it does so the ICE is controlled to limit its torque output, so as to allow the electrical energy to spin up the lower annulus and to continue the torque transfer with a higher balance of electrical energy through to output.

At the same time the higher gear annulus is unlocked from its planetary set.
Electrical energy is applied to this annulus to bring it to stationary and it is then locked to the casing.
The energy reaction from this application of electrical power adds a force to the planets and sun gear of the higher planetary set which adds to the torque transferred to output.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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The CV variations of torque during a shift with this ESERU are in series and not in parallel as with pure mechanical, hydraulic or pneumatic shift systems.
No energy is lost through friction as heat or torque lost from disengagement during shifts.

With no mechanical, hydraulic or pneumatic clutch, the electric clutch acts between the ICE and output and gives fully CV operation eliminating clutch slip or wheel spin.
There is no conventional clutch needed at all and the first gear planetary doubles as both a clutch and a gear set.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
590
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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in the past you have debunked the 'hot shift' capability of the established F1 transmission
but seem to have implied that yours allows 'no reduction in torque transfer', ie it does 'hot shift' ?
now you seem to be no longer making that implication ? 'the ICE is controlled to limit its torque output'

yours seems to be another quick shift system that does not have the torque continuity of the notional 'ideal' continuous variability
your series torque path is disadvantageous to this (although torque continuity is rather unimportant under fuel-limit rules)
the clutchless electric-powered progress up to 2nd gear is recognisable in the novel thinking of many (who include reverse)

the electrical arrangement seems clearly worse than those of the established F1 systems
complicated and inconsistently/not well matched to the available voltage, according to the gear in use
it would need multiple MG drives, or switching of one drive ?

most novel schemes incorporate parallel torque paths (to give stepless, clutchless drive)
even in F1 this approach would allow fewer gears and gearchanges

with an EM relatively larger than F1's this would substantially reduce the number of gears and gearchanges
and reduce the ICE size and further improve efficiency by running it at rather high and constant torque
all too road relevant for the F1 show

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: 2014 Gear ratios and Final Drives

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Tommy Cookers wrote:in the past you have debunked the 'hot shift' capability of the established F1 transmission
but seem to have implied that yours allows 'no reduction in torque transfer', ie it does 'hot shift' ?
now you seem to be no longer making that implication ? 'the ICE is controlled to limit its torque output'

yours seems to be another quick shift system that does not have the torque continuity of the notional 'ideal' continuous variability
your series torque path is disadvantageous to this (although torque continuity is rather unimportant under fuel-limit rules)
the clutchless electric-powered progress up to 2nd gear is recognisable in the novel thinking of many (who include reverse)

the electrical arrangement seems clearly worse than those of the established F1 systems
complicated and inconsistently/not well matched to the available voltage, according to the gear in use
it would need multiple MG drives, or switching of one drive ?

most novel schemes incorporate parallel torque paths (to give stepless, clutchless drive)
even in F1 this approach would allow fewer gears and gearchanges

with an EM relatively larger than F1's this would substantially reduce the number of gears and gearchanges
and reduce the ICE size and further improve efficiency by running it at rather high and constant torque
all too road relevant for the F1 show
No, the torque transfer is simply balanced from demand between the ICE output and the applied electrical energy.
No torque loss only a balance of torque supply.
I cannot see the point of using the term 'hot shift' it does not mean much.
Series torque transfer is an advantage not a disadvantage.

CV transmissions of all types use far to much energy operating their variable shift mechanisms to allow them to be efficient.

My ideas for electrical energy management and power train control have not been covered here.
The electrical arrangements have not been shown, the drawing is a crude schematic.
The size of this ESERU can be smaller than current F1 gearboxes, including the M/G/Shift stator components.
Gear train diameter is 84 mm.

The electrical 'clutch' action also allows electrical drive only in the pits and electrical reverse.
It also allows engine start with no extra gearing or weight.
Getting 'beached' with the engine stopped would become a thing of the past.

aircooledtwin
aircooledtwin
0
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:41 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Thanks autogyro. I'm relatively new to this forum and have just read through this thread in its entirety in one go.
It's fascinating, both as an engineering hypothetical concept, but also simply as an observation of human online interactions.

I think I understand what you have outlined but for one point of confusion...
In neutral the first gear planetary is unlocked and un-powered electrically.
The gear mechanical output locker is in neutral.
Power is applied to the first gear annulus which rotates the ICE to start it.
Power is then taken off the first gear annulus and the gear train brought to stationary and the mechanical output engaged.
The first gear annulus rotates in the reverse direction in free wheel neutral with the ICE running..
Power is again applied to the first gear annulus and the car accelerates from stationary on electric power alone.

After inertia is established in a few seconds the first gear annulus is brought electrically to stationary and is locked to the casing .
The ICE can then drive through this first gear ratio.
If the mechanical output is engaged with the first gear annulus rotating in reverse, free-wheeling in neutral this is presumably under power from the ICE?
If electric power is then applied to the first gear annulus, then my understanding is that the reverse motion would gradually go from reverse free-wheeling to stationary w.r.t gearbox casing, and this process would drive the planetary and carrier as soon as electric power is applied? If this is the case, acceleration of the drivetrain would not be under electric power alone?

Forgive me if I'm making an obvious error here, but I'm a medic not an engineer and clarifying this point would really help my understanding of the concept.

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:03 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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The ICE powers the annulus in free wheel reverse rotation at tick over the vehicle is stationary.
Electrical power applied to the annulus powers the annulus in the 'drive' direction against the ICE power input.
The annulus is forced to change from rotating in free wheel in the reverse direction to turning in the drive direction.
Applied electrical power minus the ICE power, equals reduced electrical power to output.
The output drives the vehicle from stationary to a speed that is a result of the ICE tick over rpm and the ratio of the first gear planetary at the point where the annulus becomes stationary.
The ICE is controlled so that throttle pedal input does not result in increased power from the ICE other than sufficient to maintain tick over until the annulus becomes stationary.
Vehicle inertia is then established with no need for a conventional clutch and ICE power can then be used in mechanical first gear to drive the vehicle until a different fixed planetary gear ratio is required.

aircooledtwin
aircooledtwin
0
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:41 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Thanks for your reply.
So how far have you got with this beyond the patent?
Do you foresee any problems with being able to apply the degree of control necessary for a transmission, with adjacent electric motor/generator units interfering with each other, if one is harvesting whilst the other is applying power?

aircooledtwin
aircooledtwin
0
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:41 pm

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Hi autogyro,
Not sure if you are still active on this forum, but really interested to hear if you have been able to make any progress with this?

Honda Porsche fan
Honda Porsche fan
0
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:44 am

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Has there been any updates over the years on autogyro's ESERU and did it ever get produced and picked up by any industry or individuals to be used?

Has anyone or any company produced a similar technology ?

Honda Porsche fan
Honda Porsche fan
0
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:44 am

Re: autogyro's Transmission Concept

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Earlier in this thread autogyro said that his ESERU is also a replacement for 'regenerative braking'.

So, I'm assuming the ESERU can recharge the battery in a hybrid or full EV ?