2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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SiLo wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:32 am
The only thing that anyone is able to grasp to as some form of mitigating fgctor is that Perez is nowhere compared to Verstappen. RB have not been dominant all year, it's just recency bias. They have certainly made a big step with Max since the summer break, and Ferrari being Ferrari has artificially made the gap bigger than it should be.


7 points behind Vettel by round 12 of 2017 season.
8 points behind Vettel by round 10 of the 2018 season.
38 points ahead of Vettel by round 13 of the 2015 season.

In 2014 Ricciardo won 3 races and got done over by his team at least 3 times(DSQ in Oz, pit stop error, suspension failure) Yet when we discuss dominance, it's ok to microcosm 2022 to say the RB18 is nothing special but the W05 was dominant.

There are various factors involved, and those that come to my mind are very evident.
2022 is NOT about single lap pace. We saw this clearly at several races where the fastest one lap car was severely compromised in the race...the Austrian GP comes to mind as do several others.
A fast car that can utilise it's speed consistently and has a wider strategy window is way better than a fast car that goes off the boil after 10 laps, regardless if that car was sitting on Pole or not. As does a fastest lap have no bearing as the factors that influence it are subject to the above, new boots and a couple laps do not mean a car is fastest over a race distance. As prescribed by various occasions we see a Ferrari go backwards in the race, only to bang a fastest lap at the end of the race with an RB18 in the distance.

Then comes the arbitrary moving target of what defines a dominant car. 1 second a lap faster than anything else?
0.5?
Why should there be a set figure? Should it not be a car that can win capably beyond anything on the grid?

It's amazing to me that anyone would actually even dispute the RB18 to not be dominant, and in the same breath suggest Mercedes would. For me, that's recency bias.
"Interplay of triads"

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:22 am

It's amazing to me that anyone would actually even dispute the RB18 to not be dominant, and in the same breath suggest Mercedes would. For me, that's recency bias.
It's just the usual fan/hate narrative: The Mercedes was a dominant car ergo Hamilton isn't that good really. The Red Bull isn't that special ergo Verstappen is amazingly good.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Quantum
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:27 am
Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:22 am

It's amazing to me that anyone would actually even dispute the RB18 to not be dominant, and in the same breath suggest Mercedes would. For me, that's recency bias.
It's just the usual fan/hate narrative: The Mercedes was a dominant car ergo Hamilton isn't that good really. The Red Bull isn't that special ergo Verstappen is amazingly good.
Well at the risk of invoking the Mods ire, I think a thread to take discussion off the race thread would be useful.

Because it does seem a bit driver fanboy motivated, as the arguments given for some teams to have dominant cars and others not, appear solely based on their livery.
"Interplay of triads"

Aesop
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:22 am

it's ok to microcosm 2022 to say the RB18 is nothing special but the W05 was dominant.
(...)
It's amazing to me that anyone would actually even dispute the RB18 to not be dominant, and in the same breath suggest Mercedes would. For me, that's recency bias.
Talking about bias :lol:


I don't think anyone can deny the RB18's dominance since the summerbreak. And no one can deny the domincance of Mercedes in 20014, 2015, 2016, 2019 and 2020.
2017 and 2018 are actually pretty comparable with this year. Ferrari being competitive the first half of the season but Mercedes running away with it after the break. Only difference is the operational level of Ferrari this year.

DChemTech
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:27 am
Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:22 am

It's amazing to me that anyone would actually even dispute the RB18 to not be dominant, and in the same breath suggest Mercedes would. For me, that's recency bias.
It's just the usual fan/hate narrative: The Mercedes was a dominant car ergo Hamilton isn't that good really. The Red Bull isn't that special ergo Verstappen is amazingly good.
Excerpt most people don't use it to argue that. Hamilton comfortably beat both his teammates in all years except one outlier; he has shown to be an exceptional driver that would likely have won many, if not all of the titles he did even if he were not in a dominant car. That he did happen to be in a dominant car doesn't take anything away from that.

CMSMJ1
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:36 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:27 am
Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:22 am

It's amazing to me that anyone would actually even dispute the RB18 to not be dominant, and in the same breath suggest Mercedes would. For me, that's recency bias.
It's just the usual fan/hate narrative: The Mercedes was a dominant car ergo Hamilton isn't that good really. The Red Bull isn't that special ergo Verstappen is amazingly good.
Well at the risk of invoking the Mods ire, I think a thread to take discussion off the race thread would be useful.

Because it does seem a bit driver fanboy motivated, as the arguments given for some teams to have dominant cars and others not, appear solely based on their livery.
No stress - I agree - take this discussion out of this race thread and into a new one. =D>
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basti313
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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How a bout a proper Yin Yang thread on dominance, where the BDSM fans can copy and paste their opinion about goats and ducks over and over?

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:22 am
SiLo wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:32 am
The only thing that anyone is able to grasp to as some form of mitigating fgctor is that Perez is nowhere compared to Verstappen. RB have not been dominant all year, it's just recency bias. They have certainly made a big step with Max since the summer break, and Ferrari being Ferrari has artificially made the gap bigger than it should be.
In 2014 Ricciardo won 3 races and got done over by his team at least 3 times(DSQ in Oz, pit stop error, suspension failure) Yet when we discuss dominance, it's ok to microcosm 2022 to say the RB18 is nothing special but the W05 was dominant.
It was a Mercedes formula from 2014-2016.

In 2022, Ferrari were nerfed after the summer break by a technical directive.

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SiLo
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Re: 2022 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Sep 02 - 04

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Quantum wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:22 am
SiLo wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:32 am
The only thing that anyone is able to grasp to as some form of mitigating fgctor is that Perez is nowhere compared to Verstappen. RB have not been dominant all year, it's just recency bias. They have certainly made a big step with Max since the summer break, and Ferrari being Ferrari has artificially made the gap bigger than it should be.


7 points behind Vettel by round 12 of 2017 season.
8 points behind Vettel by round 10 of the 2018 season.
38 points ahead of Vettel by round 13 of the 2015 season.

In 2014 Ricciardo won 3 races and got done over by his team at least 3 times(DSQ in Oz, pit stop error, suspension failure) Yet when we discuss dominance, it's ok to microcosm 2022 to say the RB18 is nothing special but the W05 was dominant.

There are various factors involved, and those that come to my mind are very evident.
2022 is NOT about single lap pace. We saw this clearly at several races where the fastest one lap car was severely compromised in the race...the Austrian GP comes to mind as do several others.
A fast car that can utilise it's speed consistently and has a wider strategy window is way better than a fast car that goes off the boil after 10 laps, regardless if that car was sitting on Pole or not. As does a fastest lap have no bearing as the factors that influence it are subject to the above, new boots and a couple laps do not mean a car is fastest over a race distance. As prescribed by various occasions we see a Ferrari go backwards in the race, only to bang a fastest lap at the end of the race with an RB18 in the distance.

Then comes the arbitrary moving target of what defines a dominant car. 1 second a lap faster than anything else?
0.5?
Why should there be a set figure? Should it not be a car that can win capably beyond anything on the grid?

It's amazing to me that anyone would actually even dispute the RB18 to not be dominant, and in the same breath suggest Mercedes would. For me, that's recency bias.
Not sure if your point is targeted at me or not. I was just saying the RB18 hasn't been dominant all year. But the last 4-5 races it certainly has in the hands of Verstappen. I'm not really sure what Perez is doing.
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