Is the RB18 dominant?

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SiLo
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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InsaneX_Badger wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:29 pm
SiLo wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:04 pm
Come end of the season, this car will absolutely be considered a dominant one. Their only issue appears to be that it's not incredible in qualifying (or hasn't been until very, very recently).

Ferrari kept them honest for a little bit, but once the first 5or 6 races were done it's been entirely the RB and Verstappen show. The Ferrari now reminds me of the 2013 Mercedes. Rapid over a single lap, bit trash once the race starts.
Reminds me more so of Merc 2019, car that was still strong in quali but not the clear cut best, but no one could match it in race pace and often would only get a result due to the regulations making overtaking harder.
I said the Ferrari reminded me of the Merc.
Felipe Baby!

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InsaneX_Badger
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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SiLo wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:32 pm
InsaneX_Badger wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:29 pm
SiLo wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:04 pm
Come end of the season, this car will absolutely be considered a dominant one. Their only issue appears to be that it's not incredible in qualifying (or hasn't been until very, very recently).

Ferrari kept them honest for a little bit, but once the first 5or 6 races were done it's been entirely the RB and Verstappen show. The Ferrari now reminds me of the 2013 Mercedes. Rapid over a single lap, bit trash once the race starts.
Reminds me more so of Merc 2019, car that was still strong in quali but not the clear cut best, but no one could match it in race pace and often would only get a result due to the regulations making overtaking harder.
I said the Ferrari reminded me of the Merc.
My bad, I was responding to the first part of your post

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SiLo
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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InsaneX_Badger wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:34 pm
SiLo wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:32 pm
InsaneX_Badger wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:29 pm


Reminds me more so of Merc 2019, car that was still strong in quali but not the clear cut best, but no one could match it in race pace and often would only get a result due to the regulations making overtaking harder.
I said the Ferrari reminded me of the Merc.
My bad, I was responding to the first part of your post
Oh in that case yes I agree, similar to the 2019 Merc in some ways. Although those 5 1-2s at the start of the season are hard to compare with any car really.
Felipe Baby!

DDopey
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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Stu wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:20 am
The data came much earlier in the thread, it didn’t make much of a difference.
However, much as with statistics, you can prove what you want by being selective with how you present your data.
I have looked, but I can only see win percentages. That is really limited if you are looking for car dominance ? To prevent being selective I suggested some parameters and see if we can get an agreement on those. I will Open Source the code so you will be able to run it yourself.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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Who said this?
I think they are dominant now. I think now the Red Bull is starting to be a dominant car – but at the beginning of the season, for sure not.
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organic
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Nov 06, 2022 2:21 pm
Who said this?
I think they are dominant now. I think now the Red Bull is starting to be a dominant car – but at the beginning of the season, for sure not.
Sainz https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/verst ... %20Max.%22
"No, no, you never expect that, especially when you have a good car at the beginning,” he said.

“I wish that I would have felt a bit more comfortable at the beginning of the season to make things also a bit more complicated for Max, and together with Charles [Leclerc], to put a bit more of a fight.

“But Max has had an amazing season, he deserves it. I think they are dominant now, I think now the Red Bull is starting to be a dominant car, but at the beginning of the season for sure not, and there is where he did a tremendous job.

“My target is next year to start at the level that I am now, which is a pretty decent level, and make things more complicated to Max."

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west52keep64
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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Sieper wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:54 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:08 pm
Sieper wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:47 pm
Factually incorrect.
So Perez is not in second despite being average and self admittedly not getting to grips with the car?
He wasn’t when you posted that message. He was in third at that time. Now he is back to second after an abysmal Ferrari weekend.
He's second in the WDC even after admitted the team developed the car around Max.
Q: Do you believe the car was engineered away from you, and towards Max?

Perez: I think probably yeah. You know there are times where some upgrades benefit you more or less, and goes in hand with your driving style. We've seen it with many other [Red Bull] drivers before, so I think the way we develop the car certainly went more in Max's direction. But it's something that as a team we managed to understand it well, and I really hope that together we can avoid these things happening [in the future].
The interview can be found here, the question starts at 3:09: https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... -home-fans

DDopey
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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west52keep64 wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:57 pm
Sieper wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:54 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:08 pm


So Perez is not in second despite being average and self admittedly not getting to grips with the car?
He wasn’t when you posted that message. He was in third at that time. Now he is back to second after an abysmal Ferrari weekend.
He's second in the WDC even after admitted the team developed the car around Max.
Q: Do you believe the car was engineered away from you, and towards Max?

Perez: I think probably yeah. You know there are times where some upgrades benefit you more or less, and goes in hand with your driving style. We've seen it with many other [Red Bull] drivers before, so I think the way we develop the car certainly went more in Max's direction. But it's something that as a team we managed to understand it well, and I really hope that together we can avoid these things happening [in the future].
The interview can be found here, the question starts at 3:09: https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... -home-fans
As I understand it an oversteering car can be driven faster than an under steering car. So it makes sense to develop the car in that way.

Aesop
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Nov 06, 2022 2:21 pm
Who said this?
I think they are dominant now. I think now the Red Bull is starting to be a dominant car – but at the beginning of the season, for sure not.
Who said this?
''I feel we have chances. I mean, Red Bull has been dominant, but they've been dominant without being clearly ahead in pace and and… yeah, pure quali pace and race pace. So I don't feel like we are so far behind in terms of car development and car performance,''

MadMax
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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DDopey wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 8:26 am
west52keep64 wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:57 pm
Sieper wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:54 pm


He wasn’t when you posted that message. He was in third at that time. Now he is back to second after an abysmal Ferrari weekend.
He's second in the WDC even after admitted the team developed the car around Max.
Q: Do you believe the car was engineered away from you, and towards Max?

Perez: I think probably yeah. You know there are times where some upgrades benefit you more or less, and goes in hand with your driving style. We've seen it with many other [Red Bull] drivers before, so I think the way we develop the car certainly went more in Max's direction. But it's something that as a team we managed to understand it well, and I really hope that together we can avoid these things happening [in the future].
The interview can be found here, the question starts at 3:09: https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... -home-fans
As I understand it an oversteering car can be driven faster than an under steering car. So it makes sense to develop the car in that way.
I think that's an oversimplification. You don't want oversteer at 300km/h turning in to Pouhon, for example, no matter who you are.

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Sieper
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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west52keep64 wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:57 pm
Sieper wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:54 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:08 pm


So Perez is not in second despite being average and self admittedly not getting to grips with the car?
He wasn’t when you posted that message. He was in third at that time. Now he is back to second after an abysmal Ferrari weekend.
He's second in the WDC even after admitted the team developed the car around Max.
Q: Do you believe the car was engineered away from you, and towards Max?

Perez: I think probably yeah. You know there are times where some upgrades benefit you more or less, and goes in hand with your driving style. We've seen it with many other [Red Bull] drivers before, so I think the way we develop the car certainly went more in Max's direction. But it's something that as a team we managed to understand it well, and I really hope that together we can avoid these things happening [in the future].
The interview can be found here, the question starts at 3:09: https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... -home-fans
He WASNT second when PZ posted that, he was third at that point. THAT is what I was replying to. He is second now, after the abysmal Ferrari Mexico weekend. Was already explained.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

mendis
mendis
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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west52keep64 wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:57 pm
Sieper wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:54 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:08 pm


So Perez is not in second despite being average and self admittedly not getting to grips with the car?
He wasn’t when you posted that message. He was in third at that time. Now he is back to second after an abysmal Ferrari weekend.
He's second in the WDC even after admitted the team developed the car around Max.
Q: Do you believe the car was engineered away from you, and towards Max?

Perez: I think probably yeah. You know there are times where some upgrades benefit you more or less, and goes in hand with your driving style. We've seen it with many other [Red Bull] drivers before, so I think the way we develop the car certainly went more in Max's direction. But it's something that as a team we managed to understand it well, and I really hope that together we can avoid these things happening [in the future].
The interview can be found here, the question starts at 3:09: https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... -home-fans
This is usual cribbing from No. 2 drivers. The reality is, the better driver in the team also happens to adapt better to the car and gets most of it. Engineers in every F1 team would like to follow a driver who is getting most out of a car and would naturally cure the car in that direction. This is no different ever. Intra-team fights comes when both drivers are good and can adapt to whichever direction a car is being developed and gets the most out of it.

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Vanja #66
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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MadMax wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:44 am
I think that's an oversimplification. You don't want oversteer at 300km/h turning in to Pouhon, for example, no matter who you are.
And that's why CoP is always rear of CoG
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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Mandrake
Mandrake
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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My 2 cents:

I'm also only going by the fastest driver, Sainz with his gravel excursions and Perez with up and down performance do not really work as benchmark in most cases.

- Bahrain: Ferrari slightly faster in both Q and Race
- Saudi Arabia: Absolutely even stevens
- Australia: Ferrari faster in Q and Race
- Imola: Advantage RedBull, but also changing track conditions
- Miami: Ferrari faster in Q, Race very slight advantage RedBull
- Spain: Ferrari clearly faster in Q and Race, technical DNF
- Monaco: Ferrari faster in Q and Race but strotegy
- Azerbaijan: Ferrari faster in Q, Race difficult to judge cause strategy gamble and then technical DNF. I'd say even
- Canada: Wet Quali and Engine penalty for LEC, hard to judge pace. Race different strategies, I'd say slight advantage Red Bull due to higher top speed but no dominance
- Silverstone: Ferrari faster in Q, overall also faster in Race looking at Checo. Verstappen with damage impossible to judge
- Austria: RedBull faster in Q but through tire wear sacrifice, Ferrari faster in Race
- France: Ferrari faster in Q, race ultimately not judgeable, LEC DNF driver error, slight advantage RedBull
- Hungary: Ferrari faster in Q and Race, but strotegy
- Belgium: Utter dominance by Max (TD039)
- Zandvoort: RedBull faster in Q and Race
- Monza: Ferrari faster in Q. Race advantage RedBull
- Singapore: VER should have gotten Pole, RedBull faster in Q, Race in difficult conditions but pace even stevens had LEC not burned through his tires but managed them properly
- Japan: Difficult conditions, RedBull much faster
- USA: Ferrari faster in Q, RedBull faster in the race
- Mexico: RedBull faster in Q and Race than Ferrari. Mercedes very close however

So far that makes:
Normal quali conditions
- Ferrari 11/20 faster in Quali
- RedBull 5/20 faster in Quali
- 1/20 even
Wet/changing quali conditions
- RedBull faster 3/20

Race normal conditions:
- Ferrari 8/20 faster in race
- RedBull 7/20 faster in race
- Even in 2/20 races
Wet / changing conditions:
- RedBull faster in 2/20 races
- Even in 1/20 races

Even without looking at the numbers we knew the Ferrari is much better in Q and is better than RedBull in that regard.
In the races we are looking at 8 vs 9 which makes it very even and not dominant.

The RedBull is a very fast car which has shown better reliability over the season with Max as an incredibly strong driver and a strategy team at RedBull which in point scorings make the standings look much more dominant than the actual on track performance minus driving errors and DNFs or strategic mistakes.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Is the RB18 dominant?

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Why is this thread still open? All evidence points to the car being dominant. It has won like 100% of the races after silverstone??
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