2023 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, June 02 - 04

[PlatinumZealot]

I think dropping the chicane was a great decision. Not sure why it wasn't done years ago.

[Juzh]

tsunoda = penalty
piastry = no penalty, but same situation
oh yeah this was also highest speed of this race, 348 kmh by magnussen

[Big Tea]

I think dropping the chicane was a great decision. Not sure why it wasn't done years ago.

Probably Pirelli's request as the tyres did not like the load.
Was that why they were added? Seem to remember it, but I do make things up

[Sieper]

I think dropping the chicane was a great decision. Not sure why it wasn't done years ago.

I think it might not have worked during the previous aero formula. But now it clearly does.

[AMG.Tzan]

tsunoda = penalty
piastry = no penalty, but same situation
oh yeah this was also highest speed of this race, 348 kmh by magnussen

Verstapen no penalty too even though Sainz was ahead under braking!

Double standards from the stewards as always…

[Juzh]

tsunoda = penalty
piastry = no penalty, but same situation
oh yeah this was also highest speed of this race, 348 kmh by magnussen

Verstapen no penalty too even though Sainz was ahead under braking!

Double standards from the stewards as always…

It was first lap and sainz decided to brake and stay on track. Had it been lap 2 lets say, and sainz decides to hold it on the outside and then bail, then probably penalty for max.

[RZS10]

tsunoda = penalty
piastry = no penalty, but same situation
oh yeah this was also highest speed of this race, 348 kmh by magnussen
https://streamable.com/5e7j2v

The situation is similar but not the same:

KMag arguably might not even be alongside when they start turning in (1st pic), he is not ahead at the apex (2nd), in fact he is never ahead at any point.


Contrast this with the other situation:
Zhou is fully side by side before they're done braking (end of pit exit line, 1st) and is ahead at the apex (2nd)


They key difference here is the apex, because when you go back to the guidelines for overtaking on the outside, which are also mentioned in the decision doc, they say:

In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken [...]
When considering what is a ‘significant portion’ [...] the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner.

Zhou checked the part in bold, KMag did not - relatively sure this is why one was a penalty and the other one was not.

From Yuki's onboard it's easy to see how Zhou initially brakes earlier and starts falling back, he then lets the car roll in order to be ahead at the apex shortly which after he leaves the track whilst there is still a decent enough chunk of road available to him - so in a sense it is similar to Monaco last week where Hulk was deemed to have caused a collision where there was no contact at all, Yuki now "forced" someone off track without it ever really being close enough to fit the definition of "forcing someone off track" (imho).

And since Sainz/Verstappen was mentioned, looking at the footage Carlos is ahead at some point but starts giving up the position early on, he doesn't try to hang it around the outside and is clearly not ahead at the apex.

[AMG.Tzan]

tsunoda = penalty
piastry = no penalty, but same situation
oh yeah this was also highest speed of this race, 348 kmh by magnussen

Verstapen no penalty too even though Sainz was ahead under braking!

Double standards from the stewards as always…

It was first lap and sainz decided to brake and stay on track. Had it been lap 2 lets say, and sainz decides to hold it on the outside and then bail, then probably penalty for max.

So on the first lap you can basically do anything you want with the excuse of “it’s just the first lap”!

Sainz decided to do what? He was ahead, braked later, left enough space on the inside and he was then run out of road! What were exactly his options? Even Max barely made it to the corner himself!

Max does that all the time when he’s on the inside (no need to mention what happened the last time roles were inverted) and has done that in the past many times without ever receiving a penalty! Funny how not braking, even though he’s behind another driver, and then just pushing the other driver off track is considered just racing whenever Max does it…

[organic]

Verstapen no penalty too even though Sainz was ahead under braking!

Double standards from the stewards as always…

It was first lap and sainz decided to brake and stay on track. Had it been lap 2 lets say, and sainz decides to hold it on the outside and then bail, then probably penalty for max.

So on the first lap you can basically do anything you want with the excuse of “it’s just the first lap”!

Sainz decided to do what? He was ahead, braked later, left enough space on the inside and he was then run out of road! What were exactly his options? Even Max barely made it to the corner himself!

Max does that all the time when he’s on the inside (no need to mention what happened the last time roles were inverted) and has done that in the past many times without ever receiving a penalty! Funny how not braking, even though he’s behind another driver, and then just pushing the other driver off track is considered just racing whenever Max does it…

Pretty sure there are more examples of it happening to Verstappen (Hamilton Australia, Russell Baku) than him doing it to other drivers since the rule change regarding this issue was made after the 2021 season.

Max used to make these moves because it was not penalized in the slightest. Now it should be by the rules that currently are in place, but I think they just made a mistake with the Tsunoda one. However if they believe Tsunoda's should be penalty then so should Piastri's be, in which case they've also made an error in not applying one. Even Max's most robust moves of the new regulation (eg on Mick Schumacher at British grand prix 2022) were fair by the new overtaking rules introduced for 2022 onwards.

There is long standing precedent of stewards factoring the fact it's lap 1 into decision making. Max has had it done to him twice this season already on lap 1 (because other cars know max will back out) and neither times were investigated. It's the way of the lap 1 incident.

[AMG.Tzan]

It was first lap and sainz decided to brake and stay on track. Had it been lap 2 lets say, and sainz decides to hold it on the outside and then bail, then probably penalty for max.

So on the first lap you can basically do anything you want with the excuse of “it’s just the first lap”!

Sainz decided to do what? He was ahead, braked later, left enough space on the inside and he was then run out of road! What were exactly his options? Even Max barely made it to the corner himself!

Max does that all the time when he’s on the inside (no need to mention what happened the last time roles were inverted) and has done that in the past many times without ever receiving a penalty! Funny how not braking, even though he’s behind another driver, and then just pushing the other driver off track is considered just racing whenever Max does it…

Pretty sure there are more examples of it happening to Verstappen (Hamilton Australia, Russell Baku) than him doing it to other drivers since the rule change regarding this issue was made after the 2021 season.

Max used to make these moves because it was not penalized in the slightest. Now it should be by the rules that currently are in place, but I think they just made a mistake with the Tsunoda one. However if they believe Tsunoda's should be penalty then so should Piastri's be, in which case they've also made an error in not applying one. Even Max's most robust moves of the new regulation (eg on Mick Schumacher at British grand prix 2022) were fair by the new overtaking rules introduced for 2022 onwards.

There is long standing precedent of stewards factoring the fact it's lap 1 into decision making. Max has had it done to him twice this season already on lap 1 (because other cars know max will back out) and neither times were investigated. It's the way of the lap 1 incident.

True!

I also think Tsunoda shouldn’t have been penalized! Didn’t know that this rule was put in place after 2021! I thought it existed before 2021.

[BBeanBlanx]

Can anyone explain why Ocon did not get penalised for his double move defending against Alonso?

[JordanMugen]

A very lovely master class from Verstappen and his Red Bull - Honda! Quite a superior package indeed.

On the other hand, a VERY dull race. 5/10? It goes to show that easy overtaking does not make for drama or tension in and of itself -- give me Monaco, even before the rain, any day of the week over this! It reminds of dull Spanish Grand Prix from decades ago.

Even for the minor points or the non-points positions there was no tense competition as such really. The faster cars just easily made their way past the slower ones until they were sorted in order and that was that.

Perhaps DRS should have been disabled for this race, to make defending more viable?

So on the first lap you can basically do anything you want with the excuse of “it’s just the first lap”!

Sainz decided to do what? He was ahead, braked later, left enough space on the inside and he was then run out of road! What were exactly his options? Even Max barely made it to the corner himself!

Max does that all the time when he’s on the inside (no need to mention what happened the last time roles were inverted) and has done that in the past many times without ever receiving a penalty! Funny how not braking, even though he’s behind another driver, and then just pushing the other driver off track is considered just racing whenever Max does it…

Sainz could have forced the issue so that he and Verstapen collided. I'm not sure why Sainz backed out of it? (Preservation? Lack of belief of being able to go for the win?)

As per the rules, if Tsunoda did not leave a car's width on the outside of the corner then absolutely Verstappen did not either.

[JordanMugen]

We are so lucky Max Verstappen is here, otherwise this would be another Mercedes/Hamilton win.

And what exactly is wrong with that?

Hamilton's win statistics are too inflated? Verstappen still has a long way to go to catch up on routine wins tally to Hamilton's huge tally of routine wins. Every Verstappen routine victory. like this one, helps close the gap.

It would be nice to see the likes of Russell and Leclerc buiilding up their tallies of wins, which are quite modest for now, which very few routine mundane wins on their scoreboards.

Indeed Leclerc has 3x as many pole positions as race victories off the top of my head. His statistics are all lop-sided.

[organic]

We are so lucky Max Verstappen is here, otherwise this would be another Mercedes/Hamilton win.

And what exactly is wrong with that?

Hamilton's win statistics are too inflated? Verstappen still has a long way to go to catch up.

Max's stats will be the most inflated of all time given how large the calendar is getting

[Juzh]

Perhaps DRS should have been disabled for this race, to make defending more viable?

Then there would be zero overtakes, or maybe just a few between cars that are on old tyres and the ones on fresh softs of something along those lines.
What they should do is shorten DRS zone as they've done in baku (although they shouldnt on this track, basically made drs useless) and in miami (shortening was nicely judged this time).