Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2023 5:54 pm
'using the ICE to harvest around the race track' ....
.. is totally contrary to the spirit of the formula one ERS energy harvesting intentions....
then why is the MGU-K coupled to the ICE crankshaft ?

if the MGU-K was intended only to generate during braking it would be much better positioned on or close to the axle(s)

saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The MGU-K creates electrical energy from braking. This kinetic energy is converted into extra power that is put back into the combustion engine in a formula one ERS system.

AR3-GP
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2023 5:54 pm
Pushing forward the narrative, this time - 'using the ICE to harvest around the race track' (at end of straight this time instead of at part throttle as said before), is totally contrary to the spirit of the formula one ERS energy harvesting intentions. Furthermore, the Red Bull declared simulation findings has been declared as 'incorrect simulations' by the people that matter.
I understand that it is delightful to imagine that Rb are a bunch of idiots who don't know what they are doing...but how likely is that? :lol:

saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Pat Symonds - ''Driver and team concern about new 2026 rules not working are misplaced and based on out-of-date simulation data''. In my opinion in no way does it mean that the above driver and team are idiots.

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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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lio007
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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It seems they have also aquired the Honda R&D facility in Milton Keynes:
Image

For comparison: from previous years with Honda logo
Image

Bill
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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lio007 wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:23 am
It seems they have also aquired the Honda R&D facility in Milton Keynes:
https://i.ibb.co/JjsRc8r/2023-07-09-09-15-12-Window.jpg

For comparison: from previous years with Honda logo
https://michaelelliott.co.uk/img/contai ... 127864.jpg
aquired or renting if honda sold it to redbull they are morons it just show their short term thinking .they will have to repeat the same process again and built a uk hurb for battery tech and pu finetuning.

Cs98
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:09 am
Pat Symonds - ''Driver and team concern about new 2026 rules not working are misplaced and based on out-of-date simulation data''. In my opinion in no way does it mean that the above driver and team are idiots.
Same guy who also admitted the regulations were designed for dual axle harvesting before the manufacturers scrapped that. He's basically in charge of creating an aerodynamic abomination to try and make up for the lack of power.

RB openly concerned. Mark Hughes reporting Ferrari and Honda are making noises behind the scenes. Merc head of engines talking about fuel burning being a necessity to run the MGU-K, Pat Symmonds admitting the regs were designed for dual axle harvesting. Yeah, these regulations are going to be great...
Last edited by Cs98 on Mon Jul 10, 2023 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cs98
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bill wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:51 am
lio007 wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:23 am
It seems they have also aquired the Honda R&D facility in Milton Keynes:
https://i.ibb.co/JjsRc8r/2023-07-09-09-15-12-Window.jpg

For comparison: from previous years with Honda logo
https://michaelelliott.co.uk/img/contai ... 127864.jpg
aquired or renting if honda sold it to redbull they are morons it just show their short term thinking .they will have to repeat the same process again and built a uk hurb for battery tech and pu finetuning.
They will probably want to build/buy something close to the AMR campus at Silverstone.

Bill
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Cs98 wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2023 12:00 pm
Bill wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:51 am
lio007 wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:23 am
It seems they have also aquired the Honda R&D facility in Milton Keynes:
https://i.ibb.co/JjsRc8r/2023-07-09-09-15-12-Window.jpg

For comparison: from previous years with Honda logo
https://michaelelliott.co.uk/img/contai ... 127864.jpg
aquired or renting if honda sold it to redbull they are morons it just show their short term thinking .they will have to repeat the same process again and built a uk hurb for battery tech and pu finetuning.
They will probably want to build/buy something close to the AMR campus at Silverstone.
they should just use the plant that built some of their road cars in the uk.when they build that factory in milton keynes they were still with mclaren.honda come across as incredible wasteful they built the honda f1 factory and wind tunnels then just gave it away to Brawn and a great car just poor management.

saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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''Mercedes head of engines talking about 'fuel-burning' being a necessity to run the MGU-K (meaning to harvest electrical energy)". To me what Mercedes head of engines is saying proves two things. (1) At present no fuel burning is taking place to harvest, and (2) For 2026 rules are the same, As he believes/calculates that "fuel-burning to run MGU-K being a necessity". When that RBPT project leader engine engineer was talking to RET he known exactly what he was saying re-the rules and burning fuel to harvest.

Hoffman900
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:41 pm
''Mercedes head of engines talking about 'fuel-burning' being a necessity to run the MGU-K (meaning to harvest electrical energy)". To me what Mercedes head of engines is saying proves two things. (1) At present no fuel burning is taking place to harvest, and (2) For 2026 rules are the same, As he believes/calculates that "fuel-burning to run MGU-K being a necessity". When that RBPT project leader engine engineer was talking to RET he known exactly what he was saying re-the rules and burning fuel to harvest.
From this, co-authored by Ferrari, again:
Article
Time-Optimal Low-Level Control and Gearshift Strategies for the Formula 1 Hybrid Electric Powertrain

https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/14/1/171
Finally, the optimal behavior in the corner is analyzed. The optimal cylinder deactivation is mainly the same, except at the corner exit. In this region, for the battery discharge case, slightly more fuel is injected. At the same time the spark-advance is slightly retarded and produces a lower spark-advance efficiency. This causes a small increase in the exhaust manifold temperature and pressure, allowing the MGU-H to recuperate more. The procedure of converting a small portion of fuel energy into electrical energy through the increase of the exhaust manifold temperature is possible in the cases where the battery recharge targets allow it. For the battery recharge case, this operation only occurs for a very short amount of time, since every drop of fuel counts and the gearshift strategy is not aimed at maximizing the engine efficiency, but rather finding the optimal trade-off between the internal combustion engine and the energy recovery system.
There is a lot of information out there published by Merc, Ferrari, and Honda, but people are more interested in arguing than actually reading any of it.

saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Yes, there is actually a lot of information published out there some of it even commissioned as a research by those directly involved. As to the one linked on here, (thanks for the link - although I had already been through it before being linked on here). Re-this fuel-burning-to-harvest subject at hand on here, It always involved that harvesting by the 'K' and never by the 'H', of which will be out of the question in 2026 making the subject less prone to confusion.

wuzak
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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“If you go flat out on the straight at Monza,” he says, “at around four or five hundred metres before the end of the straight, you have to downshift flat out because that’s faster.” At that point the battery has run out of its energy allocation for the lap and in the absence of the torque it provides you need the downshift to get the ICE’s revs to compensate. “I think that’s not the way forward,” says Max. “But of course, probably that’s one of the worst tracks.”
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... e-a-point/

I think there may be a little confusion over the issue.

There is no limit to the amount of energy that can be deployed in a lap.

There is, however, an energy recovery limit (9MJ/lap) and a battery storage limit (4MJ).

The issue, therefore, is that the battery runs out of energy before the end of the straight.

If you run the MGUK at full power then you will run out of energy in a bit over 11s, assuming you had 4MJ stored.

Not sure how much time is spent on Monza's main straight, but it is longer than 11s. So they will have to run lower power from the MGUK.

The worst example, IMO, are Baku and Spa, where they have approximately 23-25s at full throttle.

25s is about the amount of time that 350kW can be deployed for the whole lap, assuming the allowed 9MJ can be recovered.
Last edited by wuzak on Tue Jul 11, 2023 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

wuzak
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Cs98 wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:58 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:09 am
Pat Symonds - ''Driver and team concern about new 2026 rules not working are misplaced and based on out-of-date simulation data''. In my opinion in no way does it mean that the above driver and team are idiots.
Same guy who also admitted the regulations were designed for dual axle harvesting before the manufacturers scrapped that. He's basically in charge of creating an aerodynamic abomination to try and make up for the lack of power.

RB openly concerned. Mark Hughes reporting Ferrari and Honda are making noises behind the scenes. Merc head of engines talking about fuel burning being a necessity to run the MGU-K, Pat Symmonds admitting the regs were designed for dual axle harvesting. Yeah, these regulations are going to be great...
I think that the way to allay fears about the rules is to publish the current simulations to show what speed we can expect from a 2026 car.