Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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lio007
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Location: Austria

Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead

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vorticism
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit & Software

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Edit: moved to another thread.
Last edited by vorticism on Tue Jul 04, 2023 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
π“„€

Bill
Bill
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

lio007 wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 03, 2023 9:45 pm
As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead
2nd in terms of power ,how did they come to that conclusion seem like make it as you go along.what exatly are they measuring if they dont even have a full pu connected.it will be 50 -50 power contribution

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lio007
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Bill wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:34 pm
lio007 wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 03, 2023 9:45 pm
As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead
2nd in terms of power ,how did they come to that conclusion seem like make it as you go along.what exatly are they measuring if they dont even have a full pu connected.it will be 50 -50 power contribution
It was meant with pure V6 power.

Bill
Bill
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

lio007 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 6:26 pm
Bill wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:34 pm
lio007 wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 03, 2023 9:45 pm
As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead
2nd in terms of power ,how did they come to that conclusion seem like make it as you go along.what exatly are they measuring if they dont even have a full pu connected.it will be 50 -50 power contribution
It was meant with pure V6 power.
2026 regulation in terms of combustion are the same as current with exception variable length intake trumpets .the pu will severely restricted so i doubt they will be any change in pecking order .the challenge apparently is on electrical systems.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Bill wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 6:50 pm
lio007 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 6:26 pm
Bill wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:34 pm

2nd in terms of power ,how did they come to that conclusion seem like make it as you go along.what exatly are they measuring if they dont even have a full pu connected.it will be 50 -50 power contribution
It was meant with pure V6 power.
2026 regulation in terms of combustion are the same as current with exception variable length intake trumpets .the pu will severely restricted so i doubt they will be any change in pecking order .the challenge apparently is on electrical systems.
What's the challenge here? The MGU-H operation was by far the challenge in these regulations. As it stands, MGU-K is rather trivial. It's a motor that can absorb and deploy energy. There will be little to no differences in performance between the teams of the MGU-K unit or Energy store. The battery packs being used are made of commercial lithium ion cells from common third party suppliers.

The "challenge" will be conducting simulations to tell you when to harvest and when to deploy.

ICE power has been slashed considerably and therefore by proxy, the amount of energy that can be absorbed by the MGU-K under race conditions has also been slashed.

It's going to force a different style of racing where the focus is on using the ICE to harvest around the race track at the end of the straights, in order to use the MGU-K at the beginning of the straights. This tactic will be decided by simulations as well. I do not see anything particularly interesting in these new regulations beyond the traditional ICE development (combustion, turbo geometry). The rest of it will be born purely out of simulations that tell you when is best to activate the MGU-K for recovery or deployment. There will be little to no differencies in performance of the MGU-K unit itself, across the different suppliers.

As I said before, the interesting part was the MGU-H, and that is where Honda really stole a march on the competition.

Cs98
Cs98
26
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:37 am

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

lio007 wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 03, 2023 9:45 pm
As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead
Do you have a link to the interview?

Cs98
Cs98
26
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:37 am

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

AR3-GP wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:08 pm
Bill wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 6:50 pm
lio007 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 6:26 pm

It was meant with pure V6 power.
2026 regulation in terms of combustion are the same as current with exception variable length intake trumpets .the pu will severely restricted so i doubt they will be any change in pecking order .the challenge apparently is on electrical systems.
What's the challenge here? The MGU-H operation was by far the challenge in these regulations. As it stands, MGU-K is rather trivial. It's a motor that can absorb and deploy energy. There will be little to no differences in performance between the teams of the MGU-K unit or Energy store. The battery packs being used are made of commercial lithium ion cells from common third party suppliers.

The "challenge" will be conducting simulations to tell you when to harvest and when to deploy.

ICE power has been slashed considerably and therefore by proxy, the amount of energy that can be absorbed by the MGU-K under race conditions has also been slashed.

It's going to force a different style of racing where the focus is on using the ICE to harvest around the race track at the end of the straights, in order to use the MGU-K at the beginning of the straights. This tactic will be decided by simulations as well. I do not see anything particularly interesting in these new regulations beyond the traditional ICE development (combustion, turbo geometry). The rest of it will be born purely out of simulations that tell you when is best to activate the MGU-K for recovery or deployment. There will be little to no differencies in performance of the MGU-K unit itself, across the different suppliers.

As I said before, the interesting part was the MGU-H, and that is where Honda really stole a march on the competition.
Judging by the fact you can only harvest 350kW max per the rules, and the engine outputs 350kW max, and F1 cars are normally around 70% full throttle around a lap, it's going to be really bad compared to now. They will be clipping all the time. To somewhat combat this they will be letting off the gas several hundred meters before the corner and using the ICE as an electrical generator. The fact they aren't allowed to use the exhaust gases to regenerate energy has made the 50/50 split almost totally unfeasible. For example in LMP1, where the Porsche 919 had close to a 50/50 power split, they still had front axle regen AND exhaust gas regen. And that was a closed wheel low drag car.

User avatar
lio007
314
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Cs98 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:33 pm
lio007 wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 03, 2023 9:45 pm
As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead
Do you have a link to the interview?
Here we go: starting at 1:12:00
https://www.servustv.com/sport/v/aaf64cth1nj014j5upg7/
...but very likely geo locked.

Cs98
Cs98
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Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:37 am

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

lio007 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:07 pm
Cs98 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:33 pm
lio007 wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 03, 2023 9:45 pm
As I heard now some news about the Red Bull PU, I thought it was time for it's own thread

Helmut Marko revealed some bits at ServusTV a few minutes ago:
# a lot of engineers came from Mercedes
# there are also engineers from Ferrari and Cosworth who have joined
# by the end of the year they will run a full PU with ICE, battery and MGUK
# they are at their third version of the V6
# if rumours and whisper can be trusted they are (now) 2nd in terms of HP
# Audi is a bit behind compared to their timeline
# they are happy to have Ford on board in terms of battery knowhow, Software and $$$
# in general they are very excited for the journey ahead
Do you have a link to the interview?
Here we go: starting at 1:12:00
https://www.servustv.com/sport/v/aaf64cth1nj014j5upg7/
...but very likely geo locked.
NordVPN :lol:

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lio007
314
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Some news about a Ferrari engineer:
He was there until last September and was Fluid dynamic and combustion Team leader - F1 engine R&D


https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-me ... /10491548/

wuzak
wuzak
445
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Bill wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 6:50 pm
lio007 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 6:26 pm
Bill wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:34 pm

2nd in terms of power ,how did they come to that conclusion seem like make it as you go along.what exatly are they measuring if they dont even have a full pu connected.it will be 50 -50 power contribution
It was meant with pure V6 power.
2026 regulation in terms of combustion are the same as current with exception variable length intake trumpets .the pu will severely restricted so i doubt they will be any change in pecking order .the challenge apparently is on electrical systems.
Lots of detail changes - lower energy flow by ~1/3, lower compression ratio, lower allowed MAP/boost, regulated bottom end.

wuzak
wuzak
445
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Cs98 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:52 pm
AR3-GP wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:08 pm
Bill wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 6:50 pm


2026 regulation in terms of combustion are the same as current with exception variable length intake trumpets .the pu will severely restricted so i doubt they will be any change in pecking order .the challenge apparently is on electrical systems.
What's the challenge here? The MGU-H operation was by far the challenge in these regulations. As it stands, MGU-K is rather trivial. It's a motor that can absorb and deploy energy. There will be little to no differences in performance between the teams of the MGU-K unit or Energy store. The battery packs being used are made of commercial lithium ion cells from common third party suppliers.

The "challenge" will be conducting simulations to tell you when to harvest and when to deploy.

ICE power has been slashed considerably and therefore by proxy, the amount of energy that can be absorbed by the MGU-K under race conditions has also been slashed.

It's going to force a different style of racing where the focus is on using the ICE to harvest around the race track at the end of the straights, in order to use the MGU-K at the beginning of the straights. This tactic will be decided by simulations as well. I do not see anything particularly interesting in these new regulations beyond the traditional ICE development (combustion, turbo geometry). The rest of it will be born purely out of simulations that tell you when is best to activate the MGU-K for recovery or deployment. There will be little to no differencies in performance of the MGU-K unit itself, across the different suppliers.

As I said before, the interesting part was the MGU-H, and that is where Honda really stole a march on the competition.
Judging by the fact you can only harvest 350kW max per the rules, and the engine outputs 350kW max, and F1 cars are normally around 70% full throttle around a lap, it's going to be really bad compared to now. They will be clipping all the time. To somewhat combat this they will be letting off the gas several hundred meters before the corner and using the ICE as an electrical generator. The fact they aren't allowed to use the exhaust gases to regenerate energy has made the 50/50 split almost totally unfeasible. For example in LMP1, where the Porsche 919 had close to a 50/50 power split, they still had front axle regen AND exhaust gas regen. And that was a closed wheel low drag car.
FIA projecting around 400kW for the ICE. That is 48% thermal efficiency, compared to current PUs >50% when operating as turbo-compound.

The driver will be at full throttle when the MGUK goes into generator mode (maximum 100kW), then lift and coast up to 350kW and then braking for 350kW regeneration.

Bill
Bill
8
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Cs98 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:52 pm
AR3-GP wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 8:08 pm
Bill wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 04, 2023 6:50 pm


2026 regulation in terms of combustion are the same as current with exception variable length intake trumpets .the pu will severely restricted so i doubt they will be any change in pecking order .the challenge apparently is on electrical systems.
What's the challenge here? The MGU-H operation was by far the challenge in these regulations. As it stands, MGU-K is rather trivial. It's a motor that can absorb and deploy energy. There will be little to no differences in performance between the teams of the MGU-K unit or Energy store. The battery packs being used are made of commercial lithium ion cells from common third party suppliers.

The "challenge" will be conducting simulations to tell you when to harvest and when to deploy.

ICE power has been slashed considerably and therefore by proxy, the amount of energy that can be absorbed by the MGU-K under race conditions has also been slashed.

It's going to force a different style of racing where the focus is on using the ICE to harvest around the race track at the end of the straights, in order to use the MGU-K at the beginning of the straights. This tactic will be decided by simulations as well. I do not see anything particularly interesting in these new regulations beyond the traditional ICE development (combustion, turbo geometry). The rest of it will be born purely out of simulations that tell you when is best to activate the MGU-K for recovery or deployment. There will be little to no differencies in performance of the MGU-K unit itself, across the different suppliers.

As I said before, the interesting part was the MGU-H, and that is where Honda really stole a march on the competition.
Judging by the fact you can only harvest 350kW max per the rules, and the engine outputs 350kW max, and F1 cars are normally around 70% full throttle around a lap, it's going to be really bad compared to now. They will be clipping all the time. To somewhat combat this they will be letting off the gas several hundred meters before the corner and using the ICE as an electrical generator. The fact they aren't allowed to use the exhaust gases to regenerate energy has made the 50/50 split almost totally unfeasible. For example in LMP1, where the Porsche 919 had close to a 50/50 power split, they still had front axle regen AND exhaust gas regen. And that was a closed wheel low drag car.
the current aero rules where supposed to bring the grid much closer and avoid any team dominating.the goal was within 0.2 sec gap but failed still over 1 sec.the point is ones you get hundred of engineers thinking about problems you never know what they will come up with.the honda advantage is more than just mguh .it have good reliability so it means the can push pu harder and get most out of it.packaging too .having good ers means you carry less fuel which translate into weight saving and good lap time.the video f1 made says the 2026 pu challenge will be on electronic systems i guess it means the battle will be fought on electronic hardware and software

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Pushing forward the narrative, this time - 'using the ICE to harvest around the race track' (at end of straight this time instead of at part throttle as said before), is totally contrary to the spirit of the formula one ERS energy harvesting intentions. Furthermore, the Red Bull declared simulation findings has been declared as 'incorrect simulations' by the people that matter.