2023 Alpine F1 Team

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MIKEY_!
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2023 1:24 pm
Doctor strange levels of reality warping and word twisting in this post.
Can you point out what parts of my post are factually inaccurate (and back that up)?

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MIKEY_!
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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peewon wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:00 pm
If you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.

He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.
I do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.

Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.

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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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MIKEY_! wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 am
peewon wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:00 pm
If you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.

He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.
I do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.

Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
Otmar also played the same game by refusing to admit how much the team cost Alonso, to the point of claiming it was his own fault, and furthermore Otmar started questioning Alonso's age.

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peewon
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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MIKEY_! wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 am
peewon wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:00 pm
If you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.

He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.
I do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.

Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
Okay I'll try to answer but while being a bit lazy because I dont want to google everything that was said by Otmar post Piastri leaving. But, his initial statement said that 'Piastri lacked integrity' and they had a signed agreement with him. This was borne out to be complete lie and they even tried to pass off a terms of agreement sheet, which they modified, as a contract. Surely, Otmar knew all this and even after everything came out in the CRB hearing he still went on to call Piastri's move "a betrayal", when in reality it was Alpine trying to play both drivers in negotiations to get the best outcome for themselves. This constant personal attack on a young driver trying to establish himself while blatantly lying is why I called him 'weaselly'.

So while he gets some leeway for towing the line for his boss, there is no justification for his personal attacks on Piastri's character. Thats well and truly above and beyond simply following orders. This is why I called him a brown noser.

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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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peewon wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:04 am
MIKEY_! wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 am
peewon wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:00 pm
If you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.

He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.
I do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.

Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
Okay I'll try to answer but while being a bit lazy because I dont want to google everything that was said by Otmar post Piastri leaving. But, his initial statement said that 'Piastri lacked integrity' and they had a signed agreement with him. This was borne out to be complete lie and they even tried to pass off a terms of agreement sheet, which they modified, as a contract. Surely, Otmar knew all this and even after everything came out in the CRB hearing he still went on to call Piastri's move "a betrayal", when in reality it was Alpine trying to play both drivers in negotiations to get the best outcome for themselves. This constant personal attack on a young driver trying to establish himself while blatantly lying is why I called him 'weaselly'.

So while he gets some leeway for towing the line for his boss, there is no justification for his personal attacks on Piastri's character. Thats well and truly above and beyond simply following orders. This is why I called him a brown noser.
A captain goes down with his ship I guess...

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MIKEY_!
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 1:12 am
MIKEY_! wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 am
peewon wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:00 pm
If you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.

He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.
I do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.

Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
Otmar also played the same game by refusing to admit how much the team cost Alonso, to the point of claiming it was his own fault, and furthermore Otmar started questioning Alonso's age.
As per my previous comments, Otmar did in fact admit that reliability issues had cost Alonso, while saying that some of the lost points were down to Alonso (which was entirely accurate). Otmar's comments do come off a bit one-sided or defensive, but that's to be expected. When a driver is regularly and publicly undermining the team with claims so exaggerated it became a running joke, sooner or later the boss has to stick up for the other 500+ members of the team a little bit.

EDIT: On the subject of points lost, at the time Alonso was making his claims about "60-70" points lost, he'd actually lost about 47. By my count 37 of those were down to the team (including third-party suppliers), while 10 (a not insignificant 21%) were nothing to do with the team. https://the-race.com/formula-1/how-many ... t-in-2022/

As for Otmar's comments about Alonso's age, it was always about the reality that eventually Alonso's age would catch up with him, and the team wanted some flexibility for when that happened. There's nothing wrong with that. Even Alonso didn't criticise Otmar about it at the time.
Last edited by MIKEY_! on Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

basti313
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:03 am
peewon wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:04 am
MIKEY_! wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 am


I do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.

Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
Okay I'll try to answer but while being a bit lazy because I dont want to google everything that was said by Otmar post Piastri leaving. But, his initial statement said that 'Piastri lacked integrity' and they had a signed agreement with him. This was borne out to be complete lie and they even tried to pass off a terms of agreement sheet, which they modified, as a contract. Surely, Otmar knew all this and even after everything came out in the CRB hearing he still went on to call Piastri's move "a betrayal", when in reality it was Alpine trying to play both drivers in negotiations to get the best outcome for themselves. This constant personal attack on a young driver trying to establish himself while blatantly lying is why I called him 'weaselly'.

So while he gets some leeway for towing the line for his boss, there is no justification for his personal attacks on Piastri's character. Thats well and truly above and beyond simply following orders. This is why I called him a brown noser.
A captain goes down with his ship I guess...
Well, the question is if he was the captain.

Otmar just this week gave an interview on the situation at Alpine: Everything not related to the engineering and operations is run by the French. That means Otmar never had control over the human resources management, this was all run in Paris.
He clearly said in this interview, that you make a contract within one day in F1. For Alpine every little action takes 2 weeks.

I think this puts a completely different perspective on the way the Alonso and Piastri issues were handled as it is a unthinkable timeline in F1 and as it has a third entity in the game. So to discuss Alonso and Piastri we would need to split:
- The verbal agreements of Otmar and the drivers
- The contract negotiations between the Paris office and the drivers
- The negotiations/reports between Otmar and the Paris office to get things done...
Don`t russel the hamster!

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MIKEY_!
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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peewon wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:04 am
MIKEY_! wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 am
peewon wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:00 pm
If you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.

He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.
I do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.

Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
Okay I'll try to answer but while being a bit lazy because I dont want to google everything that was said by Otmar post Piastri leaving. But, his initial statement said that 'Piastri lacked integrity' and they had a signed agreement with him. This was borne out to be complete lie and they even tried to pass off a terms of agreement sheet, which they modified, as a contract. Surely, Otmar knew all this and even after everything came out in the CRB hearing he still went on to call Piastri's move "a betrayal", when in reality it was Alpine trying to play both drivers in negotiations to get the best outcome for themselves. This constant personal attack on a young driver trying to establish himself while blatantly lying is why I called him 'weaselly'.

So while he gets some leeway for towing the line for his boss, there is no justification for his personal attacks on Piastri's character. Thats well and truly above and beyond simply following orders. This is why I called him a brown noser.
Yeah, I said in my original post about this that Otmar's comment about Piastri's integrity (I said "loyalty", but close enough) was a really shitty thing to say. It's definitely a big black mark against him. But it's also the only one (posted here so far or anywhere else I have asked this question) that seems to have anything tangible behind it.

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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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Binotto the favorite for the team principal position

Motorsport.com Italy reports that Mattia Binotto is the favorite to take over as team principal at Alpine F1. Luca de Meo, CEO of the Renault Group, is said to have put the former Scuderia Ferrari director at the top of his shortlist.

Binotto could take over the Alpine F1 project at the beginning of 2024, after his ‘gardening leave’ period is completed. This is the period of forced rest before being able to work for another team after resigning from Ferrari.

The Italian is also rumored to be linked to a technical director position at F1 alongside CEO Stefano Domenicali. However, this scenario seems unlikely as Liberty Media does not want an “Italian colony” at the head of the premier motorsport discipline.

Possible arrival of Binotto and Ferrari engine engineers at Alpine F1

The Italian media also suggests that Binotto’s likely arrival at Alpine could bring several Ferrari engine engineers to follow their former boss to the French team. Binotto is, in fact, primarily a specialist in engines, having led this department at Scuderia Ferrari.

While the Renault engine is not at the level of the best, Alpine wants to strengthen this department. Despite the engine freeze, the French team believes it is possible to work on adjustments to improve its power unit.

In this context, reinforcements from the Scuderia Ferrari at the Viry-Châtillon engine factory could be a real advantage for Alpine.
https://las-motorsport.com/f1/news/is-f ... -f1/12293/

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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MIKEY_! wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:25 am
peewon wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:04 am
MIKEY_! wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 am


I do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.

Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
Okay I'll try to answer but while being a bit lazy because I dont want to google everything that was said by Otmar post Piastri leaving. But, his initial statement said that 'Piastri lacked integrity' and they had a signed agreement with him. This was borne out to be complete lie and they even tried to pass off a terms of agreement sheet, which they modified, as a contract. Surely, Otmar knew all this and even after everything came out in the CRB hearing he still went on to call Piastri's move "a betrayal", when in reality it was Alpine trying to play both drivers in negotiations to get the best outcome for themselves. This constant personal attack on a young driver trying to establish himself while blatantly lying is why I called him 'weaselly'.

So while he gets some leeway for towing the line for his boss, there is no justification for his personal attacks on Piastri's character. Thats well and truly above and beyond simply following orders. This is why I called him a brown noser.
Yeah, I said in my original post about this that Otmar's comment about Piastri's integrity (I said "loyalty", but close enough) was a really shitty thing to say. It's definitely a big black mark against him. But it's also the only one (posted here so far or anywhere else I have asked this question) that seems to have anything tangible behind it.
Yeah I disagree. It's true, he was disloyal...So what? If Piastri can drive, nobody will cared about the rest. Nobody is loyal to anyone in F1. They are only loyal to anything that can help them win, as long as it helps them win. After that it's "don't let the door hit you on the way out"! Ask Nyck de Vries or Danny Riccairdo.

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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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MIKEY_! wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:06 am
As for Otmar's comments about Alonso's age, it was always about the reality that eventually Alonso's age would catch up with him, and the team wanted some flexibility for when that happened.
That seems fine. So Alpine did not want to continue with Alonso, ok no big deal. So in that case why not offer a compelling contract to Piastri before Piastri had signed with McLaren?! :wtf:

basti313 wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:14 am
So to discuss Alonso and Piastri we would need to split:
- The verbal agreements of Otmar and the drivers
- The contract negotiations between the Paris office and the drivers
- The negotiations/reports between Otmar and the Paris office to get things done...
:wtf: If Alpine had the intention of not renewing Alonso and signing Piastri, surely they could have offered Piastri the 2023 race deal back in February or March?!

It seems - to the contrary - they wanted to have their cake and eat it too with both a one year + option deal with Alonso AND a Piastri loan at Williams deal where Piastri could be recalled only if the Alonso option year for 2024 wasn't taken. Surely this crude approach is what is inexcusable?!

If the preferred 2023-2024 Alpine race drivers were Alonso AND Piastri then why not sign those drivers on minimum two year deals and loan Ocon to Williams? :wink:

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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peewon wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:07 pm
If Alpine PU had 20-30 more HP they would be solidly amongst the Merc-AM-Ferrari-Mclaren group if not at the front of it. They are not a million miles behind as is.
This is the exactly the kind of Enstone v Viry approach that unification of operations under Binotto is seeking to avoid! It is a works team Alpine-Renault, so the power unit can surely not be separated from the chassis? :)

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:16 pm
peewon wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:07 pm
If Alpine PU had 20-30 more HP they would be solidly amongst the Merc-AM-Ferrari-Mclaren group if not at the front of it. They are not a million miles behind as is.
This is the exactly the kind of Enstone v Viry approach that unification of operations under Binotto is seeking to avoid! It is a works team Alpine-Renault, so the power unit can surely not be separated from the chassis? :)
Are we saying that by Permane asking F1 to allow Alpine to upgrade their PU to be equal with the other PUs in power, he's anti Chatillion-Viry?

It's obvious to me that execution has been their biggest problem. That falls straight on the race team. Both Enston and CV have done very good work.

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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:19 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:16 pm
peewon wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:07 pm
If Alpine PU had 20-30 more HP they would be solidly amongst the Merc-AM-Ferrari-Mclaren group if not at the front of it. They are not a million miles behind as is.
This is the exactly the kind of Enstone v Viry approach that unification of operations under Binotto is seeking to avoid! It is a works team Alpine-Renault, so the power unit can surely not be separated from the chassis? :)
Are we saying that by Permane asking F1 to allow Alpine to upgrade their PU to be equal with the other PUs in power, he's anti Chatillion-Viry?

It's obvious to me that execution has been their biggest problem. That falls straight on the race team. Both Enston and CV have done very good work.
Their problem is the chassis and engine, not the race team. They have some of the quicker pitstops and strategy isn't terrible.

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 9:06 pm
diffuser wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:19 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:16 pm


This is the exactly the kind of Enstone v Viry approach that unification of operations under Binotto is seeking to avoid! It is a works team Alpine-Renault, so the power unit can surely not be separated from the chassis? :)
Are we saying that by Permane asking F1 to allow Alpine to upgrade their PU to be equal with the other PUs in power, he's anti Chatillion-Viry?

It's obvious to me that execution has been their biggest problem. That falls straight on the race team. Both Enston and CV have done very good work.
Their problem is the chassis and engine, not the race team. They have some of the quicker pitstops and strategy isn't terrible.
For me, you have a the "PU team" that develops the PU. Then you have a Chassis team that develop the Chassis and you have a race team that manages the setup and all the strategies for the race etc etc etc. Everything that happens at the races. That includes the drivers the engineers, Team principle anybody that touches that.

The PU isn't a problem, it is what it is. The Chassis and PU have looked faster than the results have shown and I attribute that to the race team.