Can you point out what parts of my post are factually inaccurate (and back that up)?
I do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.peewon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:00 pmIf you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.
He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.
Otmar also played the same game by refusing to admit how much the team cost Alonso, to the point of claiming it was his own fault, and furthermore Otmar started questioning Alonso's age.MIKEY_! wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 amI do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.peewon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:00 pmIf you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.
He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.
Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
Okay I'll try to answer but while being a bit lazy because I dont want to google everything that was said by Otmar post Piastri leaving. But, his initial statement said that 'Piastri lacked integrity' and they had a signed agreement with him. This was borne out to be complete lie and they even tried to pass off a terms of agreement sheet, which they modified, as a contract. Surely, Otmar knew all this and even after everything came out in the CRB hearing he still went on to call Piastri's move "a betrayal", when in reality it was Alpine trying to play both drivers in negotiations to get the best outcome for themselves. This constant personal attack on a young driver trying to establish himself while blatantly lying is why I called him 'weaselly'.MIKEY_! wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 amI do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.peewon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:00 pmIf you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.
He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.
Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
A captain goes down with his ship I guess...peewon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:04 amOkay I'll try to answer but while being a bit lazy because I dont want to google everything that was said by Otmar post Piastri leaving. But, his initial statement said that 'Piastri lacked integrity' and they had a signed agreement with him. This was borne out to be complete lie and they even tried to pass off a terms of agreement sheet, which they modified, as a contract. Surely, Otmar knew all this and even after everything came out in the CRB hearing he still went on to call Piastri's move "a betrayal", when in reality it was Alpine trying to play both drivers in negotiations to get the best outcome for themselves. This constant personal attack on a young driver trying to establish himself while blatantly lying is why I called him 'weaselly'.MIKEY_! wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 amI do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.peewon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:00 pmIf you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.
He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.
Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
So while he gets some leeway for towing the line for his boss, there is no justification for his personal attacks on Piastri's character. Thats well and truly above and beyond simply following orders. This is why I called him a brown noser.
As per my previous comments, Otmar did in fact admit that reliability issues had cost Alonso, while saying that some of the lost points were down to Alonso (which was entirely accurate). Otmar's comments do come off a bit one-sided or defensive, but that's to be expected. When a driver is regularly and publicly undermining the team with claims so exaggerated it became a running joke, sooner or later the boss has to stick up for the other 500+ members of the team a little bit.AR3-GP wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 1:12 amOtmar also played the same game by refusing to admit how much the team cost Alonso, to the point of claiming it was his own fault, and furthermore Otmar started questioning Alonso's age.MIKEY_! wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 amI do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.peewon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:00 pmIf you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.
He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.
Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
Well, the question is if he was the captain.AR3-GP wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:03 amA captain goes down with his ship I guess...peewon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:04 amOkay I'll try to answer but while being a bit lazy because I dont want to google everything that was said by Otmar post Piastri leaving. But, his initial statement said that 'Piastri lacked integrity' and they had a signed agreement with him. This was borne out to be complete lie and they even tried to pass off a terms of agreement sheet, which they modified, as a contract. Surely, Otmar knew all this and even after everything came out in the CRB hearing he still went on to call Piastri's move "a betrayal", when in reality it was Alpine trying to play both drivers in negotiations to get the best outcome for themselves. This constant personal attack on a young driver trying to establish himself while blatantly lying is why I called him 'weaselly'.MIKEY_! wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 am
I do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.
Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
So while he gets some leeway for towing the line for his boss, there is no justification for his personal attacks on Piastri's character. Thats well and truly above and beyond simply following orders. This is why I called him a brown noser.
Yeah, I said in my original post about this that Otmar's comment about Piastri's integrity (I said "loyalty", but close enough) was a really shitty thing to say. It's definitely a big black mark against him. But it's also the only one (posted here so far or anywhere else I have asked this question) that seems to have anything tangible behind it.peewon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:04 amOkay I'll try to answer but while being a bit lazy because I dont want to google everything that was said by Otmar post Piastri leaving. But, his initial statement said that 'Piastri lacked integrity' and they had a signed agreement with him. This was borne out to be complete lie and they even tried to pass off a terms of agreement sheet, which they modified, as a contract. Surely, Otmar knew all this and even after everything came out in the CRB hearing he still went on to call Piastri's move "a betrayal", when in reality it was Alpine trying to play both drivers in negotiations to get the best outcome for themselves. This constant personal attack on a young driver trying to establish himself while blatantly lying is why I called him 'weaselly'.MIKEY_! wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 amI do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.peewon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:00 pmIf you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.
He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.
Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
So while he gets some leeway for towing the line for his boss, there is no justification for his personal attacks on Piastri's character. Thats well and truly above and beyond simply following orders. This is why I called him a brown noser.
https://las-motorsport.com/f1/news/is-f ... -f1/12293/Binotto the favorite for the team principal position
Motorsport.com Italy reports that Mattia Binotto is the favorite to take over as team principal at Alpine F1. Luca de Meo, CEO of the Renault Group, is said to have put the former Scuderia Ferrari director at the top of his shortlist.
Binotto could take over the Alpine F1 project at the beginning of 2024, after his ‘gardening leave’ period is completed. This is the period of forced rest before being able to work for another team after resigning from Ferrari.
The Italian is also rumored to be linked to a technical director position at F1 alongside CEO Stefano Domenicali. However, this scenario seems unlikely as Liberty Media does not want an “Italian colony” at the head of the premier motorsport discipline.
Possible arrival of Binotto and Ferrari engine engineers at Alpine F1
The Italian media also suggests that Binotto’s likely arrival at Alpine could bring several Ferrari engine engineers to follow their former boss to the French team. Binotto is, in fact, primarily a specialist in engines, having led this department at Scuderia Ferrari.
While the Renault engine is not at the level of the best, Alpine wants to strengthen this department. Despite the engine freeze, the French team believes it is possible to work on adjustments to improve its power unit.
In this context, reinforcements from the Scuderia Ferrari at the Viry-Châtillon engine factory could be a real advantage for Alpine.
Yeah I disagree. It's true, he was disloyal...So what? If Piastri can drive, nobody will cared about the rest. Nobody is loyal to anyone in F1. They are only loyal to anything that can help them win, as long as it helps them win. After that it's "don't let the door hit you on the way out"! Ask Nyck de Vries or Danny Riccairdo.MIKEY_! wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:25 amYeah, I said in my original post about this that Otmar's comment about Piastri's integrity (I said "loyalty", but close enough) was a really shitty thing to say. It's definitely a big black mark against him. But it's also the only one (posted here so far or anywhere else I have asked this question) that seems to have anything tangible behind it.peewon wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:04 amOkay I'll try to answer but while being a bit lazy because I dont want to google everything that was said by Otmar post Piastri leaving. But, his initial statement said that 'Piastri lacked integrity' and they had a signed agreement with him. This was borne out to be complete lie and they even tried to pass off a terms of agreement sheet, which they modified, as a contract. Surely, Otmar knew all this and even after everything came out in the CRB hearing he still went on to call Piastri's move "a betrayal", when in reality it was Alpine trying to play both drivers in negotiations to get the best outcome for themselves. This constant personal attack on a young driver trying to establish himself while blatantly lying is why I called him 'weaselly'.MIKEY_! wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 am
I do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.
Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
So while he gets some leeway for towing the line for his boss, there is no justification for his personal attacks on Piastri's character. Thats well and truly above and beyond simply following orders. This is why I called him a brown noser.
That seems fine. So Alpine did not want to continue with Alonso, ok no big deal. So in that case why not offer a compelling contract to Piastri before Piastri had signed with McLaren?!
If Alpine had the intention of not renewing Alonso and signing Piastri, surely they could have offered Piastri the 2023 race deal back in February or March?!basti313 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:14 amSo to discuss Alonso and Piastri we would need to split:
- The verbal agreements of Otmar and the drivers
- The contract negotiations between the Paris office and the drivers
- The negotiations/reports between Otmar and the Paris office to get things done...
This is the exactly the kind of Enstone v Viry approach that unification of operations under Binotto is seeking to avoid! It is a works team Alpine-Renault, so the power unit can surely not be separated from the chassis?
Are we saying that by Permane asking F1 to allow Alpine to upgrade their PU to be equal with the other PUs in power, he's anti Chatillion-Viry?JordanMugen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:16 pmThis is the exactly the kind of Enstone v Viry approach that unification of operations under Binotto is seeking to avoid! It is a works team Alpine-Renault, so the power unit can surely not be separated from the chassis?
Their problem is the chassis and engine, not the race team. They have some of the quicker pitstops and strategy isn't terrible.diffuser wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:19 pmAre we saying that by Permane asking F1 to allow Alpine to upgrade their PU to be equal with the other PUs in power, he's anti Chatillion-Viry?JordanMugen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:16 pmThis is the exactly the kind of Enstone v Viry approach that unification of operations under Binotto is seeking to avoid! It is a works team Alpine-Renault, so the power unit can surely not be separated from the chassis?
It's obvious to me that execution has been their biggest problem. That falls straight on the race team. Both Enston and CV have done very good work.
For me, you have a the "PU team" that develops the PU. Then you have a Chassis team that develop the Chassis and you have a race team that manages the setup and all the strategies for the race etc etc etc. Everything that happens at the races. That includes the drivers the engineers, Team principle anybody that touches that.AR3-GP wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 9:06 pmTheir problem is the chassis and engine, not the race team. They have some of the quicker pitstops and strategy isn't terrible.diffuser wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:19 pmAre we saying that by Permane asking F1 to allow Alpine to upgrade their PU to be equal with the other PUs in power, he's anti Chatillion-Viry?JordanMugen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:16 pm
This is the exactly the kind of Enstone v Viry approach that unification of operations under Binotto is seeking to avoid! It is a works team Alpine-Renault, so the power unit can surely not be separated from the chassis?
It's obvious to me that execution has been their biggest problem. That falls straight on the race team. Both Enston and CV have done very good work.