2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Bisonas wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 11:54 pm
diffuser wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:59 pm
Bisonas wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 3:07 pm


I checked the telemetry from his 2 flying laps in Q3.
In his last run it is clear that from corners 7,8,9 to corner 14 he was losing time compared to his previous run.
i think that the better grip that the new softs offered, allowed him to have slightly different braking points and entry speeds or maybe slight different lines compared to his previous run. It is clear from telemetry that he didn't enter some corners exactly the same way as his previous lap, nor carried the same speed in the corners in those 2 laps.
Telemetry also shows that he had for sure better traction out of corners, but he he ended up with slightly less top speed on the straights compared to his previous run (probably because in his second run, as i said before, he didn't run 5-6 seconds behind another car, so he had zero tow on the long straights)
Is either that, or they changed something in the pits, adjusted something in the pits balance/df wise, etc etc.
Green is first run.
White 2nd run.
- Couldn't get the car slowed down in time for turn 1. missed the apex and that cost him. That makes you go wide and then you have to slow the car down more, later on the throttle.

-Same thing in turn 5 and turn 7.
https://i.ibb.co/4fGxHm4/Screenshot-fro ... -39-22.png

He seems to adjust his braking after that, he's coming off the throttle earlier, but he's lost too much time by then.


If had to guess at his thinking ..... He didn't get as much braking with the new set of soft tires as he was expecting.
That set him off on the wrong foot. Then he tried to brake later to make up for it and that's always going to be really touchy. It didn't work for him.

If he did use used tires on the first stint, that might explain why he was surprised by the lack of improved braking. Either way, I think his first run was a banker, then the 2nd run was high risk endeavour to move up the charts cause the car wasn't fast enough.
Yes, he didn’t took t1 in the best possible way, he did run a little bit wide compared to first lap,
and as I said, he is using different braking points and at some corners slightly different lines.
I am not sure if we can blame the breaking performance everywhere, or Alonso just changing his breaking points and his lines a bit, on purpose. He did say after the lap, that it was a good lap after all.

The real problem though starts with the breaking at turn 5 how he enters and how he exits that corner. After exiting t5 he is mostly losing time and that goes on through 7,8 and also exiting turn 9 and up to turn 12.

The break even point though, where his second run became even with the previous lap was at turn 12.
Up until then he was managing to be slightly faster, even with the breaking points he had and the lines he took.

In your telemetry graph, the point in time that you marked is when exiting turn 12. As you can see due to better traction probably, or slightly different line, he exits the corner with higher speed than the previous lap (135km/h to 131km/h). Logic say, that with better tires, better grip, better traction and higher speed at the exit of t12, you will reach a better top speed just before t14.

https://ibb.co/p2cVLcH

But he doesn’t !!! As you see in the telemetry graph above in which i have marked the end of the straight just before t14, he keeps loosing time in the straight and he ends up with a lower overall top speed (341km/h to 343km/h). It is there, where i think following a car around 4 seconds behind may be helpful in this circuit. Not only there actually, but in other straights as well.
Notice, in the bottom part of graph, the white graph line is slower in kph but is moving further up and away from the bottom green graph line? The green is going faster in speed at the end of the straight. The white line moving further above the green line means, on that run the white line was accelerating faster than the green. Alonso nailed the braking and the fresher tires allowed Alonso to get on the throttle earlier and apply more power down. Since they are the same car, once they both get on full throttle, they'll both accelerate at the same rate but since the white line was on the throttle earlier it keeps a speed advantage for most of the straight. The top speed difference is likely because on the white line he applied the powerer sooner and harder that he ran out of battery. The Xtra 2 kph had little effect on his lap time cause it lasts such a short time, literally a fraction of a second. Under breaking he loses time as he brakes harder and scrubs off speed faster on the white graph line than on the green line. Guess on the green run when he smoked the right tire he still hit the apex.

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Bisonas
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 6:22 am
Bisonas wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 11:54 pm
diffuser wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:59 pm

Green is first run.
White 2nd run.
- Couldn't get the car slowed down in time for turn 1. missed the apex and that cost him. That makes you go wide and then you have to slow the car down more, later on the throttle.

-Same thing in turn 5 and turn 7.
https://i.ibb.co/4fGxHm4/Screenshot-fro ... -39-22.png

He seems to adjust his braking after that, he's coming off the throttle earlier, but he's lost too much time by then.


If had to guess at his thinking ..... He didn't get as much braking with the new set of soft tires as he was expecting.
That set him off on the wrong foot. Then he tried to brake later to make up for it and that's always going to be really touchy. It didn't work for him.

If he did use used tires on the first stint, that might explain why he was surprised by the lack of improved braking. Either way, I think his first run was a banker, then the 2nd run was high risk endeavour to move up the charts cause the car wasn't fast enough.
Yes, he didn’t took t1 in the best possible way, he did run a little bit wide compared to first lap,
and as I said, he is using different braking points and at some corners slightly different lines.
I am not sure if we can blame the breaking performance everywhere, or Alonso just changing his breaking points and his lines a bit, on purpose. He did say after the lap, that it was a good lap after all.

The real problem though starts with the breaking at turn 5 how he enters and how he exits that corner. After exiting t5 he is mostly losing time and that goes on through 7,8 and also exiting turn 9 and up to turn 12.

The break even point though, where his second run became even with the previous lap was at turn 12.
Up until then he was managing to be slightly faster, even with the breaking points he had and the lines he took.

In your telemetry graph, the point in time that you marked is when exiting turn 12. As you can see due to better traction probably, or slightly different line, he exits the corner with higher speed than the previous lap (135km/h to 131km/h). Logic say, that with better tires, better grip, better traction and higher speed at the exit of t12, you will reach a better top speed just before t14.

https://ibb.co/p2cVLcH

But he doesn’t !!! As you see in the telemetry graph above in which i have marked the end of the straight just before t14, he keeps loosing time in the straight and he ends up with a lower overall top speed (341km/h to 343km/h). It is there, where i think following a car around 4 seconds behind may be helpful in this circuit. Not only there actually, but in other straights as well.
Notice, in the bottom part of graph, the white graph line is slower in kph but is moving further up and away from the bottom green graph line? The green is going faster in speed at the end of the straight. The white line moving further above the green line means, on that run the white line was accelerating faster than the green. Alonso nailed the braking and the fresher tires allowed Alonso to get on the throttle earlier and apply more power down. Since they are the same car, once they both get on full throttle, they'll both accelerate at the same rate but since the white line was on the throttle earlier it keeps a speed advantage for most of the straight. The top speed difference is likely because on the white line he applied the powerer sooner and harder that he ran out of battery. The Xtra 2 kph had little effect on his lap time cause it lasts such a short time, literally a fraction of a second. Under breaking he loses time as he brakes harder and scrubs off speed faster on the white graph line than on the green line. Guess on the green run when he smoked the right tire he still hit the apex.
It's the opposite.
The white line moving further above the green line means Alonso is losing time (overall) in the straight compared to his green line lap. The white line didn't keep a speed advantage. It lost the speed advantage and lost time overall.
Yes Alonso with better tires, grip and traction had better exit and better speed at the begging of the straight, but he kept losing speed and ended up with a lower top speed having lost in the process almost a tenth (around 0.090) in that straight.

With better tires and better acceleration doesn't make sense for this to happen.

As i said IMO that happened either because he didn't had a car in front running 4 seconds ahead or they had adjusted something regarding balance/df in the pits, or (as you said) something else regarding battery, deployment etc.

But watching how other cars run out there, i believe running 4 seconds behind another car, overall is beneficial in this circuit.

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noshbloke
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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fastest lap by Alonso......... on Hard


EDIT: well double points seems possible with the current pace

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Jambier
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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First corner was on ice, I think it could have been a P4-5 otherwise

Let’s try to finish the year with another podium :)

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noshbloke
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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yeap, the circuit is an ice rink

Kamel
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Mediocre performance from Alonso to be honest

issey
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Kamel wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:13 am
Mediocre performance from Alonso to be honest
His pace was good, overtakes were good. He was just stuck in DRS train & dirty air for almost the whole race. The start was a mistake but he wasn’t the only one who spun or something like that, the tyres were cold and no grip.

KimiRai
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Such a shame the first corner maneuver did not work because there was so little grip. If not it would've been one of his best starts. Zandvoort, Brazil, he's always trying different lines to find an advantage and in those two races they worked beautifully, but this one it didn't sadly.

Of course you can say it's his fault for misjudging the amount of grip and all. When he does this kind of stuff he usually finds about it on practice and doesn't go completely blind, so who knows. Great idea that just didn't work out.
Last edited by KimiRai on Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bisonas
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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His turn 1 move IMO was unnecessary and uncharacteristic from Alonso .
The moment he pulled so far left to the dirty side, i got a feeling that this was coming.
He should have judged it better IMO.
I am guessing he was eager to pass the Williams because he was afraid getting stuck behind them after lap1 and destroying his race due to Williams top speed.
I am not criticizing him, it is just how it looked to me and how i felt watching it..
After that it was a recovery race.
The Safety car helped in the first part of the race, but the DRS train didn't in the latter part of the race.
I thought he had the pace to stay within 5sec from Russell but obviously tire management isn't that easy when you are constantly following others.
Great race from Stroll though.
With how everything was unfolded, double points was a good result.
Last edited by Bisonas on Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

KimiRai
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Bisonas wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:31 am
His turn 1 move IMO was unnecessary and uncharacteristic from Alonso .
The moment he pulled so far left to the dirty side, i got a feeling that this was coming.
He should have judged it better IMO.
I am not criticizing him, it is just how it looked to me and how i felt watching it..
After that it was a recovery race.
The Safety car helped in the first part of the race, but the DRS train didn't in the latter part of the race.
I thought he had the pace to stay within 5sec from Russell but obviously tire management isn't that easy when you are constantly following others.
Great race from Stroll though.
With how everything was unfolded, double points was a good result.
I understand your point, but I personally disagree on this one. We can draw a parallel with the first corners of Zandvoort for example. On both occasions he tried to make unconventional lines to gain an advantage over his rivals at the start of the race. The first one worked, and he knew about the grip on the inside from free practice. This time it didn't and he spun. We don't know (yet) if similarly he had tested it beforehand. If the Zandvoort maneuver had gone wrong, had he lost control of the car as a passenger and spun, the same would have been said.

I think he was right to be aggressive after qualifying P10 (starting P9 after Sainz penalty) and having cars with higher top speed ahead of him like the Williams, as someone else pointed out earlier
NAPI10 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:43 pm
I am hoping Alonso overtakes at least one Williams on the first lap otherwise going to be a tough race to crack the top 5
But yes, it was a mistake in the end regardless.

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Bisonas
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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KimiRai wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:39 am
Bisonas wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:31 am
His turn 1 move IMO was unnecessary and uncharacteristic from Alonso .
The moment he pulled so far left to the dirty side, i got a feeling that this was coming.
He should have judged it better IMO.
I am not criticizing him, it is just how it looked to me and how i felt watching it..
After that it was a recovery race.
The Safety car helped in the first part of the race, but the DRS train didn't in the latter part of the race.
I thought he had the pace to stay within 5sec from Russell but obviously tire management isn't that easy when you are constantly following others.
Great race from Stroll though.
With how everything was unfolded, double points was a good result.
I understand your point, but I personally disagree on this one. We can draw a parallel with the first lap of Zandvoort for example. On both occasions he tried to make unconventional lines to gain an advantage over his rivals. The first one worked, and he knew about the grip on the inside from free practice. This time it didn't and he spun. We don't know (yet) if similarly he had tested it beforehand. If the Zandvoort manoeuvre had gone wrong, had he lost control of the car as a passenger and spun, the same would have been said.

I think he had to be aggressive after qualifying P10 (starting P9 after Sainz penalty) and having cars with higher top speed ahead of him like the Williams, as someone else pointed out earlier
NAPI10 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:43 pm
I am hoping Alonso overtakes at least one Williams on the first lap otherwise going to be a tough race to crack the top 5
i don't think we can draw a parallel with Zadvoort because Zabdvoort isn't a street circuit, isn't a night race, nor happening in such cold conditions. I don't know how we can draw a parallel with Zadvoort.
It's common sense that the inside of turn1 will be very very dirty and very very slippery, especially at the start of the race.

KimiRai
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Bisonas wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:47 am
KimiRai wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:39 am
Bisonas wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:31 am
His turn 1 move IMO was unnecessary and uncharacteristic from Alonso .
The moment he pulled so far left to the dirty side, i got a feeling that this was coming.
He should have judged it better IMO.
I am not criticizing him, it is just how it looked to me and how i felt watching it..
After that it was a recovery race.
The Safety car helped in the first part of the race, but the DRS train didn't in the latter part of the race.
I thought he had the pace to stay within 5sec from Russell but obviously tire management isn't that easy when you are constantly following others.
Great race from Stroll though.
With how everything was unfolded, double points was a good result.
I understand your point, but I personally disagree on this one. We can draw a parallel with the first lap of Zandvoort for example. On both occasions he tried to make unconventional lines to gain an advantage over his rivals. The first one worked, and he knew about the grip on the inside from free practice. This time it didn't and he spun. We don't know (yet) if similarly he had tested it beforehand. If the Zandvoort manoeuvre had gone wrong, had he lost control of the car as a passenger and spun, the same would have been said.

I think he had to be aggressive after qualifying P10 (starting P9 after Sainz penalty) and having cars with higher top speed ahead of him like the Williams, as someone else pointed out earlier
NAPI10 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:43 pm
I am hoping Alonso overtakes at least one Williams on the first lap otherwise going to be a tough race to crack the top 5
i don't think we can draw a parallel with Zadvoort because Zabdvoort isn't a street circuit, isn't a night race, nor happening in such cold conditions. I don't know how we can draw a parallel with Zadvoort.
It's common sense that the inside of turn1 will be very very dirty and very very slippery, especially at the start of the race.
Drops had just begun to fall, it was windy, and the weather forecast was between 14ºC and 18ºC so not too different from Vegas. You are right that it wasn't a street circuit and we know how dirty they can be so I grant you that it was likely an ever bigger risk. But I think the thought process was similar from him in both starts. Now this is just my speculation but when he tries these things it's because he tested them before in practice, so if that happened it's possible the lack of grip surprised him, but we don't know that yet

makecry
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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I like how people are saying Fernando was being stupid. We are talking about one of the greatest racing minds of all time, if he went for it, he thought it through and decided it was worth the risk. It’s a shame it didn’t work out, if it did, he’d have been on the podium, that’s how things work

AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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It was a nothing incident. Most people ran wide in T1.

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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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makecry wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:06 am
It’s a shame it didn’t work out, if it did, he’d have been on the podium, that’s how things work
Alonso wouldn't have been on the podium. Ferrari and Rb were far too quick. Aston wasn't anywhere near as close to them as Brazil.