2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
Sieper
73
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

That’s what I like to read too, excellently put, well described, utterly pointless posts. I produce them too, at least 1/3rd of it.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
341
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

An interesting comment from Horner. It doesn't suggest that they think the RB20 will be able to outdo the RB19.
"For Max to have led over a thousand laps, for him to have won 19 races, to have broken McLaren's record from '88, to have broken Seb's – our own record from 2013 – the win ratios, all the percentages that he's hit.."

"This car will go down in history, certainly for I think a considerable period of time, the most successful car in Formula 1 history."

User avatar
chrisc90
41
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:22 pm

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

He doesnt say the RB20 wont be a fast car though. Others might move a bit closer.

GhostF1
GhostF1
110
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 9:40 pm
An interesting comment from Horner. It doesn't suggest that they think the RB20 will be able to outdo the RB19.
"For Max to have led over a thousand laps, for him to have won 19 races, to have broken McLaren's record from '88, to have broken Seb's – our own record from 2013 – the win ratios, all the percentages that he's hit.."

"This car will go down in history, certainly for I think a considerable period of time, the most successful car in Formula 1 history."
I think this more points to RBR's belief the competition will much stiffer next year. Although I remember at the end of the 2022 season everyone was very wary of what Mercedes will bring in 2023, Ferrari as well, they arguably had the best car in 2022 but.. typical Ferrari mishaps squandered that. Come '23 Merc ultimately failed to deliver a consistently performing car, but the wariness was present of the competition to come. Nobody would of guessed at the end of of 2022 that the threat Mercedes and Ferrari showed in portions of that season would of fizzled a bit in 2023.

Not sure this whitewash will happen again so easily anytime soon

User avatar
Big Tea
99
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

GhostF1 wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:57 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 9:40 pm
An interesting comment from Horner. It doesn't suggest that they think the RB20 will be able to outdo the RB19.
"For Max to have led over a thousand laps, for him to have won 19 races, to have broken McLaren's record from '88, to have broken Seb's – our own record from 2013 – the win ratios, all the percentages that he's hit.."

"This car will go down in history, certainly for I think a considerable period of time, the most successful car in Formula 1 history."
I think this more points to RBR's belief the competition will much stiffer next year. Although I remember at the end of the 2022 season everyone was very wary of what Mercedes will bring in 2023, Ferrari as well, they arguably had the best car in 2022 but.. typical Ferrari mishaps squandered that. Come '23 Merc ultimately failed to deliver a consistently performing car, but the wariness was present of the competition to come. Nobody would of guessed at the end of of 2022 that the threat Mercedes and Ferrari showed in portions of that season would of fizzled a bit in 2023.

Not sure this whitewash will happen again so easily anytime soon
I think Merc were too badly caught out out with the proposing to really get stuck into getting into where they went wrong with the design for the first handful of races. They knew they had screwed up but had to fire fight the porpoise problem rather than the not competitive problem. Red bull took full advantage of establishing not only a points lead but a development lead, on a car that was already a full step above anyone else, and as it was not a pressure to develop "now" had time to make sure everything went smoothly without wasting resource chasing a tenth today.

This will have to pass over into the new car, but I suspect Merc and Ferrari will be closer to next years car than they were this year, but still playing catch up. On a personal note, I hope Merc, Ferrari and AM and any others that can make the leap are snapping at the heels of the Red bull to give us a more interesting season.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
TNTHead
9
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:41 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Big Tea wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:24 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:57 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2023 9:40 pm
An interesting comment from Horner. It doesn't suggest that they think the RB20 will be able to outdo the RB19.

I think this more points to RBR's belief the competition will much stiffer next year. Although I remember at the end of the 2022 season everyone was very wary of what Mercedes will bring in 2023, Ferrari as well, they arguably had the best car in 2022 but.. typical Ferrari mishaps squandered that. Come '23 Merc ultimately failed to deliver a consistently performing car, but the wariness was present of the competition to come. Nobody would of guessed at the end of of 2022 that the threat Mercedes and Ferrari showed in portions of that season would of fizzled a bit in 2023.

Not sure this whitewash will happen again so easily anytime soon
I think Merc were too badly caught out out with the proposing to really get stuck into getting into where they went wrong with the design for the first handful of races. They knew they had screwed up but had to fire fight the porpoise problem rather than the not competitive problem. Red bull took full advantage of establishing not only a points lead but a development lead, on a car that was already a full step above anyone else, and as it was not a pressure to develop "now" had time to make sure everything went smoothly without wasting resource chasing a tenth today.

This will have to pass over into the new car, but I suspect Merc and Ferrari will be closer to next years car than they were this year, but still playing catch up. On a personal note, I hope Merc, Ferrari and AM and any others that can make the leap are snapping at the heels of the Red bull to give us a more interesting season.
I think after two years of the new regulations, including the exposed floor of RB, it should be known what makes a fast car under this regulation set. So the ongoing convergence will proceed leading to diminishing pace differences.
RB earlier on already stated that they were suprised that the others were that far off, because they know their car isn't yet in a perfect place. The big question remains still how close it will be next year, and if Honda also comes with a performance gain of the PU. I suspect that RB has still a pace advantage but not on every circuit anymore.

ali623
ali623
0
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:27 pm

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

TNTHead wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:45 am
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:24 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:57 am


I think this more points to RBR's belief the competition will much stiffer next year. Although I remember at the end of the 2022 season everyone was very wary of what Mercedes will bring in 2023, Ferrari as well, they arguably had the best car in 2022 but.. typical Ferrari mishaps squandered that. Come '23 Merc ultimately failed to deliver a consistently performing car, but the wariness was present of the competition to come. Nobody would of guessed at the end of of 2022 that the threat Mercedes and Ferrari showed in portions of that season would of fizzled a bit in 2023.

Not sure this whitewash will happen again so easily anytime soon
I think Merc were too badly caught out out with the proposing to really get stuck into getting into where they went wrong with the design for the first handful of races. They knew they had screwed up but had to fire fight the porpoise problem rather than the not competitive problem. Red bull took full advantage of establishing not only a points lead but a development lead, on a car that was already a full step above anyone else, and as it was not a pressure to develop "now" had time to make sure everything went smoothly without wasting resource chasing a tenth today.

This will have to pass over into the new car, but I suspect Merc and Ferrari will be closer to next years car than they were this year, but still playing catch up. On a personal note, I hope Merc, Ferrari and AM and any others that can make the leap are snapping at the heels of the Red bull to give us a more interesting season.
I think after two years of the new regulations, including the exposed floor of RB, it should be known what makes a fast car under this regulation set. So the ongoing convergence will proceed leading to diminishing pace differences.
RB earlier on already stated that they were suprised that the others were that far off, because they know their car isn't yet in a perfect place. The big question remains still how close it will be next year, and if Honda also comes with a performance gain of the PU. I suspect that RB has still a pace advantage but not on every circuit anymore.
Their two main challengers, Mercedes and Ferrari, basically completely fumbled this season by starting with dud concepts they carried over from last year. The rest of the grid actually closed up quite considerably to Red Bull this year compared to 2022. The complete lack of progress from Merc/Ferrari basically allowed RB to cruise all season.

I agree, next year should be closer still, everyone else has way more development time than RB and should have a fairly good understanding of what RB are doing with their car concept now.

User avatar
Wouter
110
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Horner: 'Red Bull's year was insane… and we started early on our 2024 car'

Chris Medland
November 29th 2023
Christian Horner says this year's Red Bull is the most successful car in F1 history, but tells Chris Medland in a Motor Sport exclusive that he can't dwell on the past. There's a title to retain in 2024; an engine to build for 2026; but firstly, a pile of appraisals on his desk.

“The fact that we got to Singapore unbeaten, holy moly, it’s unbelievable.

“When you think back over, not just the last 10 months or 11 months, but if you think back over the last 24 months… Two years ago here in Abu Dhabi, we were fighting, going into the final round of the championship level on points. What we’ve achieved since then, is mind boggling.”

It really does feel like a long time since that infamous night at the Yas Marina Circuit when Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen started the final race of the season locked together. It was one of the great seasons up to that point, as Christian Horner’s Red Bull team brought an end to Mercedes’ dominance, and kicked off a period of its own.

Since then, there have been 44 grands prix held, and Red Bull has won 38 of them. Of the six times Red Bull has been beaten, four came in the first 11 races of 2022 as the team fought to get its extremely quick car down to a weight that would let it exploit the performance it had.

Or put more simply: 31 wins from the past 33 races.
.

The whole interview with Horner.
The Power of Dreams!

GhostF1
GhostF1
110
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

TNTHead wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:45 am
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:24 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:57 am


I think this more points to RBR's belief the competition will much stiffer next year. Although I remember at the end of the 2022 season everyone was very wary of what Mercedes will bring in 2023, Ferrari as well, they arguably had the best car in 2022 but.. typical Ferrari mishaps squandered that. Come '23 Merc ultimately failed to deliver a consistently performing car, but the wariness was present of the competition to come. Nobody would of guessed at the end of of 2022 that the threat Mercedes and Ferrari showed in portions of that season would of fizzled a bit in 2023.

Not sure this whitewash will happen again so easily anytime soon
I think Merc were too badly caught out out with the proposing to really get stuck into getting into where they went wrong with the design for the first handful of races. They knew they had screwed up but had to fire fight the porpoise problem rather than the not competitive problem. Red bull took full advantage of establishing not only a points lead but a development lead, on a car that was already a full step above anyone else, and as it was not a pressure to develop "now" had time to make sure everything went smoothly without wasting resource chasing a tenth today.

This will have to pass over into the new car, but I suspect Merc and Ferrari will be closer to next years car than they were this year, but still playing catch up. On a personal note, I hope Merc, Ferrari and AM and any others that can make the leap are snapping at the heels of the Red bull to give us a more interesting season.
I think after two years of the new regulations, including the exposed floor of RB, it should be known what makes a fast car under this regulation set. So the ongoing convergence will proceed leading to diminishing pace differences.
RB earlier on already stated that they were suprised that the others were that far off, because they know their car isn't yet in a perfect place. The big question remains still how close it will be next year, and if Honda also comes with a performance gain of the PU. I suspect that RB has still a pace advantage but not on every circuit anymore.
Agreed, definitely will be interesting to see who can hone in on the ideal direction. And as for Honda, Watanabe has told everyone to expect a better engine in 2024 as they can and have made strides with this concept still. Increased longevity, reliability and ability to run under harsher conditions translate to better performance. So definitely will be a curious season!

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/239287/h ... -2024.html

mendis
mendis
19
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:12 pm

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

TNTHead wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:45 am
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:24 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:57 am


I think this more points to RBR's belief the competition will much stiffer next year. Although I remember at the end of the 2022 season everyone was very wary of what Mercedes will bring in 2023, Ferrari as well, they arguably had the best car in 2022 but.. typical Ferrari mishaps squandered that. Come '23 Merc ultimately failed to deliver a consistently performing car, but the wariness was present of the competition to come. Nobody would of guessed at the end of of 2022 that the threat Mercedes and Ferrari showed in portions of that season would of fizzled a bit in 2023.

Not sure this whitewash will happen again so easily anytime soon
I think Merc were too badly caught out out with the proposing to really get stuck into getting into where they went wrong with the design for the first handful of races. They knew they had screwed up but had to fire fight the porpoise problem rather than the not competitive problem. Red bull took full advantage of establishing not only a points lead but a development lead, on a car that was already a full step above anyone else, and as it was not a pressure to develop "now" had time to make sure everything went smoothly without wasting resource chasing a tenth today.

This will have to pass over into the new car, but I suspect Merc and Ferrari will be closer to next years car than they were this year, but still playing catch up. On a personal note, I hope Merc, Ferrari and AM and any others that can make the leap are snapping at the heels of the Red bull to give us a more interesting season.
I think after two years of the new regulations, including the exposed floor of RB, it should be known what makes a fast car under this regulation set. So the ongoing convergence will proceed leading to diminishing pace differences.
RB earlier on already stated that they were suprised that the others were that far off, because they know their car isn't yet in a perfect place. The big question remains still how close it will be next year, and if Honda also comes with a performance gain of the PU. I suspect that RB has still a pace advantage but not on every circuit anymore.
When was the last time we had performance convergence in F1, when a team had gotten away at the beginning of new regulations? The story of the past decade and half shows, it doesn't, unless constant holes are punched within that regulation set to remove the advantage of the leading team to then produce a year like 2012 or 2021. A dominant concept always has the potential to evolve, especially when a team possess good engineering strength and strong understanding of the regulation set. Given the fact that there are no holes being punched in regulation set for next year, expecting performance convergence is wishful thinking.

The RB19 worked on all circuits (barring one), in all conditions and on all compounds. It's mighty impressive to have a concept like that and a massive mountain to scale for other teams whose cars have worked sporadically. To expect the other teams would suddenly manage to convert their concept to match such an efficiency, is expecting miracles. 2024 might be another year where we would see different cars being a challenger to RB on different circuits, but not the same car.

Eren Jager
Eren Jager
0
Joined: Fri May 05, 2023 9:22 am

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

I don't understand how people think that the RB19 will be better than the RB20.
Need I remind you that we stopped the dev of the RB19 before the summer? That we produced this car with a 'natural' wind tunnel and CFD restriction (P1 constructor) , to which we added the cost cap penalty? And we can add that Max was told 90% of the time "don't go any faster" ("there is no race", remember Bahrain).

I think that the RB19 could go much faster on most circuits and produce even bigger gaps but that the team wanted to hide it (the true potentiel of the RB19) to avoid being slowed down by the FIA.

We've been working 100% on the RB20 since the summer, while our competitors had one foot in 2024 and another in 2023. Every one of our upgrades has worked, and we're so far ahead of our competitors in terms of time, but also in terms of our understanding of the ground effect and our car.
And let's not forget the "Max factor", who is the most dominant driver in history. I definitely think that next year will be even more DOMINANT and I'm personally aiming for a 100% win for Max, at the very least for RedBull (be prepared for the others to say "FIAbull" etc etc )

And last but not least, Eddie Jordan said : " I was with Adrian Newey last night […] and Adrian told me he thinks the evolution of what they have is going to be very difficult for anyone to catch up with.So get ready for some boring or exciting times depending on whether you're a Red Bull fan or not! "

User avatar
Wouter
110
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Eren Jager wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:04 am
I don't understand how people think that the RB19 will be better than the RB20.
Need I remind you that we stopped the dev of the RB19 before the summer? That we produced this car with a 'natural' wind tunnel and CFD restriction (P1 constructor) , to which we added the cost cap penalty? And we can add that Max was told 90% of the time "don't go any faster" ("there is no race", remember Bahrain).

I think that the RB19 could go much faster on most circuits and produce even bigger gaps but that the team wanted to hide it (the true potentiel of the RB19) to avoid being slowed down by the FIA.

We've been working 100% on the RB20 since the summer, while our competitors had one foot in 2024 and another in 2023. Every one of our upgrades has worked, and we're so far ahead of our competitors in terms of time, but also in terms of our understanding of the ground effect and our car.
And let's not forget the "Max factor", who is the most dominant driver in history. I definitely think that next year will be even more DOMINANT and I'm personally aiming for a 100% win for Max, at the very least for RedBull (be prepared for the others to say "FIAbull" etc etc )

And last but not least, Eddie Jordan said : " I was with Adrian Newey last night […] and Adrian told me he thinks the evolution of what they have is going to be very difficult for anyone to catch up with.So get ready for some boring or exciting times depending on whether you're a Red Bull fan or not! "
.
Are you working at RBR? Because you are talking about "we". Do you have more inside info if the answer is "Yes"?

At the Auto Sport forum is an insider from RBR called Sparky.
The Power of Dreams!

User avatar
TFSA
2
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:06 am

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Eren Jager wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:04 am
I don't understand how people think that the RB19 will be better than the RB20.
Need I remind you that we stopped the dev of the RB19 before the summer? That we produced this car with a 'natural' wind tunnel and CFD restriction (P1 constructor) , to which we added the cost cap penalty? And we can add that Max was told 90% of the time "don't go any faster" ("there is no race", remember Bahrain).
The cost cap penalty will affect the RB20 more than the RB19. The RB19 was close to fully developed when the cost cap penalty went into affect (October 22), and the penalty will mostly be related to how many upgrades were developed for the car. I addition, part of the RB19 was developed when Red Bull had aero/CDF based on being 2nd in the constructors in 2021.

Reality is of course that we won't know how strong the RB20 will be, and it also depends on the rivals progress. It will no doubt be faster than the RB19, but let's see how much Neweys optimism is worth. For all his genius, i have noticed he has a tendency to talk up his own work quite a bit, although he does it in kinda subtle ways. Being proud is good and all, but he's hardly an unbiased source. For example, i don't for a second agree with him when he said Red Bull probably had the faster car overall in 2021.

User avatar
organic
1024
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:24 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

TFSA wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:56 pm
Eren Jager wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:04 am
I don't understand how people think that the RB19 will be better than the RB20.
Need I remind you that we stopped the dev of the RB19 before the summer? That we produced this car with a 'natural' wind tunnel and CFD restriction (P1 constructor) , to which we added the cost cap penalty? And we can add that Max was told 90% of the time "don't go any faster" ("there is no race", remember Bahrain).
The cost cap penalty will affect the RB20 more than the RB19. The RB19 was close to fully developed when the cost cap penalty went into affect (October 22), and the penalty will mostly be related to how many upgrades were developed for the car. I addition, part of the RB19 was developed when Red Bull had aero/CDF based on being 2nd in the constructors in 2021.

Reality is of course that we won't know how strong the RB20 will be, and it also depends on the rivals progress. It will no doubt be faster than the RB19, but let's see how much Neweys optimism is worth. For all his genius, i have noticed he has a tendency to talk up his own work quite a bit, although he does it in kinda subtle ways. Being proud is good and all, but he's hardly an unbiased source. For example, i don't for a second agree with him when he said Red Bull probably had the faster car overall in 2021.
I would say the advantage of the rb19 over the rivals at the start of 2023 allowed them to absorb the penalty with significantly reduced Rb19 development with no cost to the rb20

User avatar
organic
1024
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:24 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

Post

Like Vasseur, Wolff said the one driver who was a constant throughout the season was Verstappen.

“It’s difficult to comprehend that good drivers in various teams have these oscillations of performance,” he said. “You’ve seen it this weekend with Sainz and Leclerc, you’ve seen it with George and Lewis, Oscar [Piastri] and Lando [Norris].

“And the obvious one is Perez and Verstappen. Perez is not a second slower than Max. So, what is that?

“We have seen it swinging in both directions. So fundamentally, I think it’s all around the tyre grip. If you are able to have the car in a sweet spot, a stable platform that you start the work with the beginning of the weekend, then you can extract performance.

“I think if you’re not, there’s just no performance. You’re falling off the cliff, literally. So I have no explanation for that.

“I think the only one this year who has understood how to drive these tyres is Max.”
Baku race that Max said he used to understand what the tyres needed paid off and maybe nobody else understood them quite the same way right to the end, at least according to Wolff