2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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CHT
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:16 am
CHT wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:41 pm
With Merc securing long-term engine supply contract with Mclaren and the possibility of Toto selling the Merc team, I wonder if Merc will continue their F1 with Merc AMG F1 since they have already reduced their stake from 60 to 30%.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/toto-wolf ... rts-pundit
Toto is an investor and no investor would let go of a golden opportunity to get optimum returns on his investment. It's not a good news for an investor if the valuation of the team goes down due to it's lack of success. I wouldn't be surprised if he sells his stake in the team.

This team is a good brand value for Mercedes and there is no reason for them to sell it, regardless of stock value. Moreover, with cost cap, they are a profitable outfit.
I thought of that for Merc too, but back in 2021, Merc did sell half of its 60% stake to INEOS investment group, a company that is involved in sports such as football rugby cycling sailing, etc, and recently tried to bid for ManU.

If Merc is seeking long-term control over the team, I suppose they will want to maintain at least 51% controlling stake as the majority shareholder. Suppose if Toto decides to sell, INEOS and Merc will likely have the first right to acquisition. For Merc, it's most unlikely since they had just trimmed their shareholding. For INEOS, they will most certainly be interested since they are a deep-pocket sports investment company, for sure they will be looking at buying low instead of high. In a business transaction, one man's loss is another man's gain.

CHT
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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maygun wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:54 am
https://www.motorsportweek.com/2023/12/ ... p-allison/

Interesting comments about how the team disfunctioned during the last two years because of the pressure.

I think most of this is due to poor leadership from Toto more than Mike Elliot. In any company when the top management pressures the teams without listening/coordinating/unblocking them this is the result. I hope James saw this miscommunication issue early so that the new car developed in a more productive environment.
The change may coincide with the period when Merc decides to sell part of the company to INEOS Group. As employees at Merc, I am sure many will ask why Merc decided to cut its ownership and where the future lies under the ownership of a billionaire and investment company instead of the car manufacturer.

mendis
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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denyall wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:02 am
maygun wrote:https://www.motorsportweek.com/2023/12/ ... p-allison/

Interesting comments about how the team disfunctioned during the last two years because of the pressure.

I think most of this is due to poor leadership from Toto more than Mike Elliot. In any company when the top management pressures the teams without listening/coordinating/unblocking them this is the result. I hope James saw this miscommunication issue early so that the new car developed in a more productive environment.
You believe the poor leadership is from Toto, who lead the team through multiple reg changes and to 8 WCC, not the lead Engineer who had the role for 18 months and subsequently stepped down, and then left the team?

Elliot (And Allison) job is to get engineers to work together to make the best car possible. Toto job is to hire the best Technical director possible. The only failure I see from him is waiting too long to make a change in leadership.
It's the same lead engineer (Elliott) that was responsible for all the development in those 8 years as the chief of aerodynamics! If he had to go, then why not Toto?

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denyall
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
denyall wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:02 am
maygun wrote:https://www.motorsportweek.com/2023/12/ ... p-allison/

Interesting comments about how the team disfunctioned during the last two years because of the pressure.

I think most of this is due to poor leadership from Toto more than Mike Elliot. In any company when the top management pressures the teams without listening/coordinating/unblocking them this is the result. I hope James saw this miscommunication issue early so that the new car developed in a more productive environment.
You believe the poor leadership is from Toto, who lead the team through multiple reg changes and to 8 WCC, not the lead Engineer who had the role for 18 months and subsequently stepped down, and then left the team?

Elliot (And Allison) job is to get engineers to work together to make the best car possible. Toto job is to hire the best Technical director possible. The only failure I see from him is waiting too long to make a change in leadership.
It's the same lead engineer (Elliott) that was responsible for all the development in those 8 years as the chief of aerodynamics! If he had to go, then why not Toto?
Leading like minded people isn't as great a challenge as leading teams who represent competing interests. Elliot failed to create an environment where the fastest ideas made it to the car. Either by a lack of understanding other aspects of the car (engine, suspension, structural, etc.) or understanding but assigning incorrect priorities, Elliot failed to produce a winning car. When crisis struck, Elliot failed to reprioritize and focus the team of engineers, instead he created the silos that Allison says he's worked to break down. Time will tell if Allison righted the ship, however Elliots time (as technical director) was up.

Toto let Elliot run his team and gave him (probably too much) space to build the car. When he recognized that the situation was unrecoverable, he made the necessary changes to correct his mistake in appointing Elliot.

The situation reflects good leadership by Toto.

CHT
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:50 am
denyall wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:02 am
maygun wrote:https://www.motorsportweek.com/2023/12/ ... p-allison/

Interesting comments about how the team disfunctioned during the last two years because of the pressure.

I think most of this is due to poor leadership from Toto more than Mike Elliot. In any company when the top management pressures the teams without listening/coordinating/unblocking them this is the result. I hope James saw this miscommunication issue early so that the new car developed in a more productive environment.
You believe the poor leadership is from Toto, who lead the team through multiple reg changes and to 8 WCC, not the lead Engineer who had the role for 18 months and subsequently stepped down, and then left the team?

Elliot (And Allison) job is to get engineers to work together to make the best car possible. Toto job is to hire the best Technical director possible. The only failure I see from him is waiting too long to make a change in leadership.
It's the same lead engineer (Elliott) that was responsible for all the development in those 8 years as the chief of aerodynamics! If he had to go, then why not Toto?
Mike Elliott's departure will be felt and his situation reminds me of the time when Adrian Newey was asked by Ron Dennis to take gardening leave. Mike is one of the best aerodynamicists around and at the age of 50 next year, I won't be surprised to see RBR recruit Mike as a successor for AN when the latter retires.

maygun
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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denyall wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:02 am
maygun wrote:https://www.motorsportweek.com/2023/12/ ... p-allison/

Interesting comments about how the team disfunctioned during the last two years because of the pressure.

I think most of this is due to poor leadership from Toto more than Mike Elliot. In any company when the top management pressures the teams without listening/coordinating/unblocking them this is the result. I hope James saw this miscommunication issue early so that the new car developed in a more productive environment.
You believe the poor leadership is from Toto, who lead the team through multiple reg changes and to 8 WCC, not the lead Engineer who had the role for 18 months and subsequently stepped down, and then left the team?

Elliot (And Allison) job is to get engineers to work together to make the best car possible. Toto job is to hire the best Technical director possible. The only failure I see from him is waiting too long to make a change in leadership.
Toto is also a human, and everyone can make mistakes. Just the beginning of this year, after the first race he said this race is my worst day in F1. Or the apologizing letter saga. Or saying the car is a shitbox or on the radio message saying I know this car is bad to Lewis. I can continue to count. I am sure that these messages have zero positive effect on car development. I think after 2021 he became too emotional and this affected his judgement.

Imagine you are working overtime, trying to do your best as an engineer, and your boss says whatever you are producing is --- in front of millions. Not sure if I would like to work for such a boss or have any commitment to that team.

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zeroday
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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maygun wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:31 am
Imagine you are working overtime, trying to do your best as an engineer, and your boss says whatever you are producing is --- in front of millions. Not sure if I would like to work for such a boss or have any commitment to that team.
I dunno about that. I guess it depends on the engineer. Seeing your "hard work" on track perform like s--t tells me i did not do my job well enough. Too many vacations and family leaves (ie. not taking my job seriously) on my part. Or i had a bad leader directing me.

If I as an engineer get upset by the these clear disastrous results, as seen on track for nearly a year, then i would encourage the owner to ask i leave because I am clearly not passionate enough to want to win. This industry excels when its bursting with young, hungry, ambitious engineers ideally (plus Adrian Newey :lol: ). It's when these engineers tend to get steeped into family life they will usually begin to lose their passions and well, slack off. At least in most fields in life. Just human nature.

mendis
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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denyall wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 4:23 am
mendis wrote:
denyall wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:02 am
You believe the poor leadership is from Toto, who lead the team through multiple reg changes and to 8 WCC, not the lead Engineer who had the role for 18 months and subsequently stepped down, and then left the team?

Elliot (And Allison) job is to get engineers to work together to make the best car possible. Toto job is to hire the best Technical director possible. The only failure I see from him is waiting too long to make a change in leadership.
It's the same lead engineer (Elliott) that was responsible for all the development in those 8 years as the chief of aerodynamics! If he had to go, then why not Toto?
Leading like minded people isn't as great a challenge as leading teams who represent competing interests. Elliot failed to create an environment where the fastest ideas made it to the car. Either by a lack of understanding other aspects of the car (engine, suspension, structural, etc.) or understanding but assigning incorrect priorities, Elliot failed to produce a winning car. When crisis struck, Elliot failed to reprioritize and focus the team of engineers, instead he created the silos that Allison says he's worked to break down. Time will tell if Allison righted the ship, however Elliots time (as technical director) was up.

Toto let Elliot run his team and gave him (probably too much) space to build the car. When he recognized that the situation was unrecoverable, he made the necessary changes to correct his mistake in appointing Elliot.

The situation reflects good leadership by Toto.
Do you work for Mercedes? I must say, even I can't state inner workings with such details of my own job and organisation. Let's agree to disagree.

mendis
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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CHT wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 4:39 am
mendis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:50 am
denyall wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:02 am
You believe the poor leadership is from Toto, who lead the team through multiple reg changes and to 8 WCC, not the lead Engineer who had the role for 18 months and subsequently stepped down, and then left the team?

Elliot (And Allison) job is to get engineers to work together to make the best car possible. Toto job is to hire the best Technical director possible. The only failure I see from him is waiting too long to make a change in leadership.
It's the same lead engineer (Elliott) that was responsible for all the development in those 8 years as the chief of aerodynamics! If he had to go, then why not Toto?
Mike Elliott's departure will be felt and his situation reminds me of the time when Adrian Newey was asked by Ron Dennis to take gardening leave. Mike is one of the best aerodynamicists around and at the age of 50 next year, I won't be surprised to see RBR recruit Mike as a successor for AN when the latter retires.
I think he would be a fantastic prospect if RB wants to hire him, regardless of the position that they offer. He was rated immensely by Ross Brawn himself when he hired him in Mercedes.

I have a feeling that James Vowels might have already had discussion with him for Williams. He is on a hiring spree too. James was on the Red Bull shortlist for Alpha Tauri position as Team Principal himself. So Elliott has many opportunities, including Alpha Tauri.

CHT
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:59 am
CHT wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 4:39 am
mendis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:50 am
It's the same lead engineer (Elliott) that was responsible for all the development in those 8 years as the chief of aerodynamics! If he had to go, then why not Toto?
Mike Elliott's departure will be felt and his situation reminds me of the time when Adrian Newey was asked by Ron Dennis to take gardening leave. Mike is one of the best aerodynamicists around and at the age of 50 next year, I won't be surprised to see RBR recruit Mike as a successor for AN when the latter retires.
I think he would be a fantastic prospect if RB wants to hire him, regardless of the position that they offer. He was rated immensely by Ross Brawn himself when he hired him in Mercedes.

I have a feeling that James Vowels might have already had discussion with him for Williams. He is on a hiring spree too. James was on the Red Bull shortlist for Alpha Tauri position as Team Principal himself. So Elliott has many opportunities, including Alpha Tauri.
A person like Mike is hard to come by and he is in his prime. I am sure Mike must be looking forward to proving himself with a new team and he will be the ideal to replace AN at RBR. Possibly joining RBR end of 2024 to start work on the 2026 project.

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SiLo
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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CHT wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:57 am
mendis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:59 am
CHT wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 4:39 am


Mike Elliott's departure will be felt and his situation reminds me of the time when Adrian Newey was asked by Ron Dennis to take gardening leave. Mike is one of the best aerodynamicists around and at the age of 50 next year, I won't be surprised to see RBR recruit Mike as a successor for AN when the latter retires.
I think he would be a fantastic prospect if RB wants to hire him, regardless of the position that they offer. He was rated immensely by Ross Brawn himself when he hired him in Mercedes.

I have a feeling that James Vowels might have already had discussion with him for Williams. He is on a hiring spree too. James was on the Red Bull shortlist for Alpha Tauri position as Team Principal himself. So Elliott has many opportunities, including Alpha Tauri.
A person like Mike is hard to come by and he is in his prime. I am sure Mike must be looking forward to proving himself with a new team and he will be the ideal to replace AN at RBR. Possibly joining RBR end of 2024 to start work on the 2026 project.
Could he go to Aston?
Felipe Baby!

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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mendis wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:50 am
denyall wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:02 am
maygun wrote:https://www.motorsportweek.com/2023/12/ ... p-allison/

Interesting comments about how the team disfunctioned during the last two years because of the pressure.

I think most of this is due to poor leadership from Toto more than Mike Elliot. In any company when the top management pressures the teams without listening/coordinating/unblocking them this is the result. I hope James saw this miscommunication issue early so that the new car developed in a more productive environment.
You believe the poor leadership is from Toto, who lead the team through multiple reg changes and to 8 WCC, not the lead Engineer who had the role for 18 months and subsequently stepped down, and then left the team?

Elliot (And Allison) job is to get engineers to work together to make the best car possible. Toto job is to hire the best Technical director possible. The only failure I see from him is waiting too long to make a change in leadership.
It's the same lead engineer (Elliott) that was responsible for all the development in those 8 years as the chief of aerodynamics! If he had to go, then why not Toto?
Elliott was not head of aero for 8 years. Was for 5 years 2012-17

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Big Tea
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I say again, the team are missing Niki more than they admit. He was Toto's sounding board and straight talking guide
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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ValeVida46
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:52 pm
I say again, the team are missing Niki more than they admit. He was Toto's sounding board and straight talking guide
Which has zero impact on what car the team produces. Hierarchical fringe management like Lauda are mascots.
And that is with respect to Lauda's racing career and his pedigree as a businessman.
Unless you can directly link him to the team producing a faster car, they are just high profile individuals with camera time and supervisory roles that ask questions when it goes south.

For me it's Aldo Costa the team misses most. The Quiet Italian was a maestro, and actually had his name attached to a string of championship winning cars.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ValeVida46 wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:55 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:52 pm
I say again, the team are missing Niki more than they admit. He was Toto's sounding board and straight talking guide
Which has zero impact on what car the team produces. Hierarchical fringe management like Lauda are mascots.
And that is with respect to Lauda's racing career and his pedigree as a businessman.
Unless you can directly link him to the team producing a faster car, they are just high profile individuals with camera time and supervisory roles that ask questions when it goes south.

For me it's Aldo Costa the team misses most. The Quiet Italian was a maestro, and actually had his name attached to a string of championship winning cars.
I think Toto and others in the team valued his input and he regulated what Toto made public as an advisor and said to or about other team members.
There is no doubt he had no involvement in actually designing or producing the car, but it seems clear to me he was a guiding hand along the way to smoothing out the bumps and ruffled fur from Toto down and back up to Toto. He also seems to have had a calming effect on Hamilton.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.