Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2024 5:54 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2024 2:23 am
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 3:03 pm


They could have gone back to the 2 weekend per engine rule. I believe the teams blow up more than that on the dyno, so better to just put them in the cars and run them all strung out.🥰🥰
Yeh, they really need to go back to the drawing board with this rule and decide what the object of it is.

As it is now, cost saving is missing the mark by a light year. They are destroying more engines in tests to ensure they are up to it than they would use putting a freah one in each weekend.

Are they working to limit cost, improve longlivity to transfer to road cars, which the now expect to be electric anyway, or just to mix up the starting grid?

Same with "exotic materials". I understand not allowing nasty materials to be used, but if something costs twice as much and lasts five times as long, or adds 5% to fuel economy or service life, which is the cost saving path?
I mean, just giving them 5, but allow rebuilds would go a long way.
I really see no reason why the could not use say 3 motors to buid a usable lump for later in the season as long as a set list of components was not used. Some things would obviously have to be new, and some things would hardly not be worth reusing, but even if they allow a set value for the year it could help
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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lio007
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Is it just me or does this year's PU sounds more aggressive off-throttle. Not as much as in 2021, but more than last year?
(Starting at about 22seconds):

Bill
Bill
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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sound like cylinder deactivation is back ,it was ounce ridiculed as misfiring

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Sieper
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Isn’t that just a rain ecu setting?

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vorticism
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 8:57 am
Wouter wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2023 2:58 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2023 1:55 pm
Does anyone know what the rumoured 2024 engine/PU improvements are?
.
"In terms of power and performance, we may not improve anything, but in other areas we can also make strides with this engine.
At Ferrari, for example, they have developed the engine considerably and Mercedes' ERS system is also very strong.

We will also improve our engine for next year in terms of its longevity. So there is definitely something in the pipeline,"

Watanabe informed.

Red Bull-Honda relationship

Honda, meanwhile, has been Red Bull's engine supplier for several years, but that period is coming to an end. From 2026, the Japanese will join forces with Aston Martin, where Red Bull will develop its own engine with partner Ford. So only in 2024 and 2025 will Honda and Verstappen's team continue to work together.

That collaboration is going well, despite the relationship coming to an end. "Red Bull doesn't tell us anything about their engine, and we don't tell them anything about our development either. So there is already a kind of information war going on at the moment. At Red Bull, they do have some knowledge about our current engine, but ultimately we are responsible for the development and the whole process. Most of the knowledge is with us," Watanabe explained.
So much for the need for a longevity engine: https://www.racefans.net/2024/02/05/cha ... ts-agreed/

Hope they can up the power now that the engine only has to do 6 races.
Any relation to the new intercooler locations?

trinidefender wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:45 pm
Cs98 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:30 pm
What I don't understand is why RB insists on running these bulky intercoolers. You look at the Merc powered cars and they have very small packaging under the sidepod. Is it just weight? Would've thought they could eat that penalty by now in the regs.
Might be a requirement of the Honda PU to have cooler inlet air temperatures.

Or maybe the weight penalty just isn’t worth it to them.
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Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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vorticism wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:31 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 8:57 am
Wouter wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2023 2:58 pm

.
So much for the need for a longevity engine: https://www.racefans.net/2024/02/05/cha ... ts-agreed/

Hope they can up the power now that the engine only has to do 6 races.
Any relation to the new intercooler locations?

trinidefender wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:45 pm
Cs98 wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:30 pm
What I don't understand is why RB insists on running these bulky intercoolers. You look at the Merc powered cars and they have very small packaging under the sidepod. Is it just weight? Would've thought they could eat that penalty by now in the regs.
Might be a requirement of the Honda PU to have cooler inlet air temperatures.

Or maybe the weight penalty just isn’t worth it to them.
It's being suggested it's because of the lower intake where air is warmer:

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vorticism
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Alexf1 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:48 am
It's being suggested it's because of the lower intake where air is warmer:
Well if not for that then either:

-the wanted for whatever reason narrower ICs which mean making them longer which forced the chevron arrangement (no longer could stack IC and water HX end to end serially as in prev ten seasons)
-there was an ongoing cooling limitation and they made the IC larger, forcing the use of chevron arrangement
-change to engine durability regs this year means they can run the engine at closer to party mode more frequently requiring larger IC, forcing the use of chevron arrangement
-none of the above and the chevron shortens the overall HX & ducting complex in the sidepod, giving more freedom in engine cover design/shrink wrapping
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dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The floor is ingesting a lot of the so called warmer air. The thin verticle inlet is getting air that is negligable in temperature difference to the roll hoop. The coolers are likely resized for their packaging.
Honda!

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ispano6
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https://jp.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-20 ... /10580541/

The role Honda/HRC played in the "super aggressive" design of the Red Bull RB20. Tetsushi Kakuda LPL: "By raising the thermal limit of the engine, we should be able to contribute indirectly."

(note the names have been corrected from Google Translate version. The translation may also be confusing in certain phrases)
Red Bull's 2024 machine RB20 has become a hot topic for its bold and aggressive design, and the development achieved by Honda/HRC seems to have contributed in no small part to its realization.

Executive Chief Engineer Tetsushi Kakuda , who serves as LPL (Large Project Leader) of the F1 project at Honda Racing (HRC), explains the development that has been carried out in terms of power units (PUs) in preparation for the 2024 season. He revealed that he has been raising the temperature limit when driving.

 Red Bull showed overwhelming strength last year, setting a new record for annual winning percentage with 21 wins from 22 races. They didn't rest on their laurels and surprised many with their innovative 2024 RB20 car. The opening of the side pontoon has become very small, and a new opening is prepared at the base of the halo. It also performed extremely well in the pre-season test in Bahrain that was held the other day.

"Until recently, we didn't even know that they were making a car with a concept so different from last year."

 That's what HRC's LPL Kakuda said about the RB20, and there's no doubt that Honda/HRC also made a big contribution to that aggressive design.

"The most important thing is that there is a competition called reliability development to maximize the potential. By conducting durability tests, we can check the operating limits... in other words, ``to what extent can it be used?'' By doing so, we are developing to maximize the potential."

 So says Kakuda LPL.

"When the engine gets hot, the parts reach their strength limits and break. Therefore, if the engine gets too hot, you have no choice but to reduce the output. The balance point, As a result of confirming how high the operating temperature can be raised without reducing output, I can tell the team, ``You can use it up to this point.''

 If the operating temperature limit of the engine can be raised, this means that the required cooling performance will be reduced. In other words, it contributes to the miniaturization of the radiator, which in turn contributes to the miniaturization of the bodywork. Kakuda LPL continues.

``For example, a radiator that can be operated at temperatures below 100 degrees Celsius is different in size from a radiator that can be operated up to 110 degrees Celsius. In the sense of increasing the degree of freedom in the design of the vehicle, we would like to contribute to improving the performance of the vehicle body, albeit indirectly. That is what we are doing."

 LPL Kakuda says that for the 2024 season, they informed Red Bull that the heat limit could be raised during the development stage of the car body.

"Even if we talk about this at the stage when the cooler design has been completed, it won't make much of a contribution to the aero package associated with waste heat."

"However, this time, we were given that information before we even designed the cooler. I think that information is being fed back within the team. That's how this year's new car is being completed. ”

``The new Red Bull car that appeared in the test the other day had a significantly changed concept and a more aggressive design.I thought this was exactly what F1 is, and Red Bull is a team worthy of being champion. That's what I felt once again.It's hard to tell how strong we are relative to other teams just by looking at the time results, but I think HRC will be fully prepared to start this season."

 Didn't HRC make a significant contribution to the RB20's "aggressive" design? When asked about this, LPL Kakuda answered modestly.

"No, no. From our standpoint, it's difficult to say that we've made a significant contribution. But I'd like to think we've made a small contribution."

 The RB20 that ran in the test is still in its preliminary form, and the design will be further improved by introducing a large-scale update around the Japanese GP...One theory is that it will be a "zero pod" like the one used by Mercedes until the middle of last year. There are also rumors that it might look like this.

 To achieve that, the radiator would need to be made even smaller. When I asked LPL Kakuda whether there was "leeway" in the thermal limit at the moment, he replied:

``What to do with the car is a team issue.However, when we drive, we try to get the maximum performance, so we will try to get the maximum benefit out of the opening round, Bahrain GP, ​​and the second round, Saudi Arabia GP. In other words, I think they will compete with an aero package that takes into account our temperature limits.”

"However, I'm not sure if we're going to make major changes during the season because there will probably be cost cap issues. That said, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens."

 By the way, the engine's air intake is done through the roll hoop opening, as before, rather than through the new opening at the base of the halo.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Alexf1 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:48 am
vorticism wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:31 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2024 8:57 am


So much for the need for a longevity engine: https://www.racefans.net/2024/02/05/cha ... ts-agreed/

Hope they can up the power now that the engine only has to do 6 races.
Any relation to the new intercooler locations?

trinidefender wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:45 pm


Might be a requirement of the Honda PU to have cooler inlet air temperatures.

Or maybe the weight penalty just isn’t worth it to them.
It's being suggested it's because of the lower intake where air is warmer:
@vorticism. Don't you think the intake air temp is inconsequential compared to the temperature after the compressor?

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The temperature after the compressor is directly related to the temperature before the compressor.

In fact a ten degree increase in the latter will produce more than 15 degrees increase in the former.
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vorticism
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+1 gruntguru

AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2024 8:43 pm
@vorticism. Don't you think the intake air temp is inconsequential compared to the temperature after the compressor?
Track to track across a season it would matter more, 30 deg C temp range. On track yeah it's probably not a huge difference 200-400 mm above the track surface vs 800 mm above; not my best post. After seeing more photos I think the IC may be similar volume to prev seasons, just narrowed and lengthened making it LOOK bigger.
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AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:37 pm
The temperature after the compressor is directly related to the temperature before the compressor.

In fact a ten degree increase in the latter will produce more than 15 degrees increase in the former.
You make a good point here. In this case I don't anticipate a 10C difference between air coming in at the monocoque side vs the roll hoop.

What I was getting at is that if the compressor outlet temperature is around 250-300C, then a small difference at the inlet seems unimportant. I guess it's a bit lazy of me to call it unimportant as they are always scraping for the tiniest of margins in F1 but feel it's a very minor issue likely outweighed by any aerodynamic or CoG benefits.

Bill
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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2024 8:37 pm
https://jp.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-20 ... /10580541/

The role Honda/HRC played in the "super aggressive" design of the Red Bull RB20. Tetsushi Kakuda LPL: "By raising the thermal limit of the engine, we should be able to contribute indirectly."

(note the names have been corrected from Google Translate version. The translation may also be confusing in certain phrases)
Red Bull's 2024 machine RB20 has become a hot topic for its bold and aggressive design, and the development achieved by Honda/HRC seems to have contributed in no small part to its realization.

Executive Chief Engineer Tetsushi Kakuda , who serves as LPL (Large Project Leader) of the F1 project at Honda Racing (HRC), explains the development that has been carried out in terms of power units (PUs) in preparation for the 2024 season. He revealed that he has been raising the temperature limit when driving.

 Red Bull showed overwhelming strength last year, setting a new record for annual winning percentage with 21 wins from 22 races. They didn't rest on their laurels and surprised many with their innovative 2024 RB20 car. The opening of the side pontoon has become very small, and a new opening is prepared at the base of the halo. It also performed extremely well in the pre-season test in Bahrain that was held the other day.

"Until recently, we didn't even know that they were making a car with a concept so different from last year."

 That's what HRC's LPL Kakuda said about the RB20, and there's no doubt that Honda/HRC also made a big contribution to that aggressive design.

"The most important thing is that there is a competition called reliability development to maximize the potential. By conducting durability tests, we can check the operating limits... in other words, ``to what extent can it be used?'' By doing so, we are developing to maximize the potential."

 So says Kakuda LPL.

"When the engine gets hot, the parts reach their strength limits and break. Therefore, if the engine gets too hot, you have no choice but to reduce the output. The balance point, As a result of confirming how high the operating temperature can be raised without reducing output, I can tell the team, ``You can use it up to this point.''

 If the operating temperature limit of the engine can be raised, this means that the required cooling performance will be reduced. In other words, it contributes to the miniaturization of the radiator, which in turn contributes to the miniaturization of the bodywork. Kakuda LPL continues.

``For example, a radiator that can be operated at temperatures below 100 degrees Celsius is different in size from a radiator that can be operated up to 110 degrees Celsius. In the sense of increasing the degree of freedom in the design of the vehicle, we would like to contribute to improving the performance of the vehicle body, albeit indirectly. That is what we are doing."

 LPL Kakuda says that for the 2024 season, they informed Red Bull that the heat limit could be raised during the development stage of the car body.

"Even if we talk about this at the stage when the cooler design has been completed, it won't make much of a contribution to the aero package associated with waste heat."

"However, this time, we were given that information before we even designed the cooler. I think that information is being fed back within the team. That's how this year's new car is being completed. ”

``The new Red Bull car that appeared in the test the other day had a significantly changed concept and a more aggressive design.I thought this was exactly what F1 is, and Red Bull is a team worthy of being champion. That's what I felt once again.It's hard to tell how strong we are relative to other teams just by looking at the time results, but I think HRC will be fully prepared to start this season."

 Didn't HRC make a significant contribution to the RB20's "aggressive" design? When asked about this, LPL Kakuda answered modestly.

"No, no. From our standpoint, it's difficult to say that we've made a significant contribution. But I'd like to think we've made a small contribution."

 The RB20 that ran in the test is still in its preliminary form, and the design will be further improved by introducing a large-scale update around the Japanese GP...One theory is that it will be a "zero pod" like the one used by Mercedes until the middle of last year. There are also rumors that it might look like this.

 To achieve that, the radiator would need to be made even smaller. When I asked LPL Kakuda whether there was "leeway" in the thermal limit at the moment, he replied:

``What to do with the car is a team issue.However, when we drive, we try to get the maximum performance, so we will try to get the maximum benefit out of the opening round, Bahrain GP, ​​and the second round, Saudi Arabia GP. In other words, I think they will compete with an aero package that takes into account our temperature limits.”

"However, I'm not sure if we're going to make major changes during the season because there will probably be cost cap issues. That said, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens."

 By the way, the engine's air intake is done through the roll hoop opening, as before, rather than through the new opening at the base of the halo.
last year at suzuka race Honda told us that they were going to use reliability updates to improve their pu these article shows us were that effort went into.with all the hype about redbull aggressive design ican safely say it would not be possible without Honda effort.they are people that believe you can just swap pu and redbull will be just as dominant but these show that Honda Rbr collaboration is key to success.being works team has big benefits

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etusch
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Challenging further records. "More high-load range of the engine than ever before" Tetsushi Tsunoda LPL talks about this season's Honda/HRC power unit development concept

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/1047078?all