2025 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[SB15]

Mercedes brought their flex-corrected front wing and used it here. Could it have played a role w.r.t sub-par performance, particularly with how it would have affected high speed balance and as a result, the rear tyres ?

Why would they compromise a race without needing to? What's the point of having more data on the new wing against teams using superior flexi wings?

Mercedes wanted to experiment and find out sooner rather than later when they're trying to find out why the car isn't performing well enough. The front wing is performing okay, but as Kimi pointed out, they struggled with top speed which is not surprising.

[Space-heat]

No it’s the repositioning of the wishbones they did with the rear suspension this weekend. They did not have this much rear tyre overheating until they made this change. I think they did it to improve high-speed cornering, which Fdataanalysis on Twitter shown that the car was very good in, but we should all know that less give (stiffness) on the suspension promotes more tyre heat because how much strain the tyres are in vs softer setups.

But this weekend showed something that is very clear to me.

So what’s my theory?

Well, I remember seeing the rain aero flow and with the RB19. I can now see why RBR made their sidepods as wide as possible and uniquely design their Venturi exits on the floor edge to make sure the air wake goes around the rear wheels as possible, hence their aero efficiency and straight line speed, but some of the wake does hit the tyre slightly and since the Redbull is more stiffer than others the tyres heats up.

McLaren probably design their car to have more inward inwash, which allow air to flow more towards the beam-wing, promoting more downforce and that’s maybe why they’re slower on the straights. How I noticed is because of how the rear engine cover is designed that looks like exactly like the Launch-spec W13’s rear engine cover. Brake cooling was not the whole story with the MCL39 to managing rear tyre temps, it may seem it’s the overall aero package took huge inspiration from the End-season Mercedes W14 and some queues from
The W13 last year with the MCL38.

Mike Elliot was not the issue, the zeropod concept design clearly was ahead of its time. Best thing for Merc is to go back to the old rear suspension design and redesign their floor edge, front wing end plates, and sidepods. Then decide if they want the wake to go more around the rears like RBR or more inwards like the McLaren. If it were me, I would go with McLaren’s solution.

It is pretty clear the mid-wing that Merc first integrated, now on the Ferrari, McL and RB was ahead of its time. It is hard to say the Zeropod itself was a winning philosophy. The down washing and undercut engine cover geometry clearly plays a role.

Unfortunately from Merc, if like Ferrari, they have an mechanical issue at the rear then there is no quick fix. At this point, they might be best looking toward 26'. Especially if they feel the Spain TD will hit hard. Outside resolving the overheating so they can avoid a repeat in the 26' car.

The 26' engine seems to be competitive and with GE era ending, the amount of carry over will be limited. Completely changing the car as you listed this season is not feasible.

The New Front wing they're running is a TD018 compliant version, you could make the argument they were hit hard but it's more on the new rear suspension that promoted more anti-lift that caused it.

Also, I'm not suggesting that zero-pod was a winning philosophy for this regulation, I'm only highlighting what Mike Elliot thought what was important especially with how these tyres are designed and limited on cooling because of how stiff these cars run + plus the addition of the wheel covers and wheel brows doesn't make it any better, that's completely on the FIA. However in the next set of regulation, wouldn't be shocked if the concept made a return since "Inwash" is the main philosophy.

Now relating to this year, they don't need to change the car completley, just reangle the front end plates and redesign the floor edge similar to Mclaren's or Redbull for now. Sidepods could incorporate the mid-wing as well, if they want to, they could slim down the sidepod shape and minimize the undercut but that depends if they want to take that route.

Has their been clarification from the team, Allison or a reputable source that the wing was TD018 compliant. Why throw away a race to test it, when you could just do that in Spain?

I'm not well read on vehicle dynamics, maybe it is a case of tuning in the set up to correctly use the tyres but if the new geometry is not fixable with set-up then they are going nowhere regardless.

"zeropod concept design clearly was ahead of its time" led me to make that conclusion. I don't think there has been any reliable technical analysis. I thought the goal was to design such that the front tyre wake is pushed out around the rear tyres, ensuring clean flow to the diffuser but I may be misunderstanding you original post.

It they have recognized at Imola, that their direction is wrong and they were to shift to your suggesting it would be 8-10 weeks considering design, fabrication, testing. That would put them around SPA, round 13. I think at that point shifting to 26' makes sense. I also think Ferrari should move to 26' after the Silverstone upgrade. It is annoying, as at the latter part of last year we had four constructors who were relatively close. This should have been a barnstorming season but Merc and Ferrari mucked their designs and it is Max vs the two McL.

[SB15]

It is pretty clear the mid-wing that Merc first integrated, now on the Ferrari, McL and RB was ahead of its time. It is hard to say the Zeropod itself was a winning philosophy. The down washing and undercut engine cover geometry clearly plays a role.

Unfortunately from Merc, if like Ferrari, they have an mechanical issue at the rear then there is no quick fix. At this point, they might be best looking toward 26'. Especially if they feel the Spain TD will hit hard. Outside resolving the overheating so they can avoid a repeat in the 26' car.

The 26' engine seems to be competitive and with GE era ending, the amount of carry over will be limited. Completely changing the car as you listed this season is not feasible.

The New Front wing they're running is a TD018 compliant version, you could make the argument they were hit hard but it's more on the new rear suspension that promoted more anti-lift that caused it.

Also, I'm not suggesting that zero-pod was a winning philosophy for this regulation, I'm only highlighting what Mike Elliot thought what was important especially with how these tyres are designed and limited on cooling because of how stiff these cars run + plus the addition of the wheel covers and wheel brows doesn't make it any better, that's completely on the FIA. However in the next set of regulation, wouldn't be shocked if the concept made a return since "Inwash" is the main philosophy.

Now relating to this year, they don't need to change the car completley, just reangle the front end plates and redesign the floor edge similar to Mclaren's or Redbull for now. Sidepods could incorporate the mid-wing as well, if they want to, they could slim down the sidepod shape and minimize the undercut but that depends if they want to take that route.

Has their been clarification from the team, Allison or a reputable source that the wing was TD018 compliant. Why throw away a race to test it, when you could just do that in Spain?

I'm not well read on vehicle dynamics, maybe it is a case of tuning in the set up to correctly use the tyres but if the new geometry is not fixable with set-up then they are going nowhere regardless.

"zeropod concept design clearly was ahead of its time" led me to make that conclusion. I don't think there has been any reliable technical analysis. I thought the goal was to design such that the front tyre wake is pushed out around the rear tyres, ensuring clean flow to the diffuser but I may be misunderstanding you original post.

It they have recognized at Imola, that their direction is wrong and they were to shift to your suggesting it would be 8-10 weeks considering design, fabrication, testing. That would put them around SPA, round 13. I think at that point shifting to 26' makes sense. I also think Ferrari should move to 26' after the Silverstone upgrade. It is annoying, as at the latter part of last year we had four constructors who were relatively close. This should have been a barnstorming season but Merc and Ferrari mucked their designs and it is Max vs the two McL.

Well my original post was to explain my theory on what the Mercedes main problem could be that is how the car manages the wake of air whether it's from the tyres or in dirty. Yes in theory, the goal for these new regs was to design the car to make sure the front aero wake goes around the rear tyres, but it only works when it's done right and the only team I can't think of who did it correctly was Redbull and maybe Ferrari last year.

Other teams are, or I should say, were trying to do the same but it may seem they can't get the wake away and around the rear wheels are much as they hoped. And since tyre temps are a massive problem stiffer setups makes it worse. That's probably why Mclaren is designed with slimmer, shorter and smaller sidepods. So that instead of trying everything to making the wake go outwards, make the wake go inwards and it's working wonders for them.

As far as the TD018 wing, I can tell the new front-wing is the stiffer version we'll see in Spain because it's not wobbling or flexing nearly as much as before. They can easily revert back to the older spec suspension layout. 8-10 weeks is a long time but I've seen miracles.

[Mansell89]

Any view on how the car will go in Monaco?

[f1isgood]

Any view on how the car will go in Monaco?

Merc car is quite good in quali trim. RUS might steal pole and actually win. Deg isn't an issue when no one can pass.

[Lasssept]

[Lasssept]

Toto Wolff: After a tough race in Italy, we have the opportunity to bounce back immediately in Monaco. We will work hard, quickly and efficiently, to understand what caused our limitations in Imola. It is important we get on top of that so we can avoid any repeat performances in the future.

We know that Monaco is a very different challenge, however Qualifying is absolutely vital and that has been a strength of ours this year. That is encouraging but doesn't mean anything unless we can do the job on track. We have seen how competitive Saturdays have been this year and that's always more intense in Monaco.

We will have to be at our best to give ourselves the opportunity to fight for a good result on Sunday. The mandatory two-stop in the Grand Prix will also add another dimension to the race. We're excited for the challenge and looking forward to getting back on track.

[Matt2725]

A lot of chatter that Merc were hit the hardest by this secret TD.

In reality, it looks like they did a repeat of Jeddah and their car just isn't good at tracks with fast flowing corners.

[AR3-GP]

A lot of chatter that Merc were hit the hardest by this secret TD.

In reality, it looks like they did a repeat of Jeddah and their car just isn't good at tracks with fast flowing corners.

"A lot"...

What will Mercedes do in Barcelona, Silverstone, Austria, and Spa? It is very surprising to me when Imola was touted as a real focal point for upgrades,to fix race pace, and then the car was suddenly nowhere (Russell qualified on the better tire in Q3, Antonelli was knocked out in Q2). Mercedes started the year with a very good well rounded car and I'm just struggling to believe that all their work amounted to the result in Imola, without any extenuating circumstances. Especially when Mercedes has a very strong track record for in-season updates. So that is why I feel that Imola is related to one of the TDs. I simply don't know which one (front wings, rear wings, skid)

Antonelli complained about a lack of straight line speed. Many observers noted more rigid front and rear wings on the Mercedes. Something is going on here. It's more than "Jeddah" imo. They also did not bring the new floor. Could they have been caught out by the skid block clarifications? If something suddenly impinged on my ability to run low, that might give pause to a new floor developed around running so low.

[Big Tea]

Mentioning "zeropod", now that it is no longer a current car, are they allowed to take it to a track somewhere and thrash it to death discovering what it was capable of and why they were not getting it? That knowledge in the back of their book could be a treasure trove at some point in the future

[SB15]

It's soo ironic that the Zero-pod was being looked at from a lot of teams and now for the next set of regulations.

Lewis's assumption about "Advantage locked in for years" maybe isn't as far fetched as previously believed, it may seem that the effects of Hamilton's feedback may of came back to bite Mercedes in the now future, they should've stubbornly stuck with the initial W14 design and focus on the other areas like the front wing, rear wing, and floor, and also pushing the driver position further rearwards. But the most important area they should've focused on is the suspension geometry which worked extremely well but they're limited with rear tyres overheating currently. They would've had a massive advantage in terms of tyres if the zero-pod concept was still around.

Now, Mercedes are having trouble with the current sidepod/aero concept that doesn't work well with the suspension geometry or how the car operates/drives and that's a tough pill to swallow. Mercedes can get back on track if they focus on the reworking the aero wake but as @Space-Heat said, it'll take 8-10 weeks or longer.

Merc has unfortunately failed in these sets of regulations.

[Luscion]

It's soo ironic that the Zero-pod was being looked at from a lot of teams and now for the next set of regulations.

Lewis's assumption about "Advantage locked in for years" maybe isn't as far fetched as previously believed, it may seem that the effects of Hamilton's feedback may of came back to bite Mercedes in the now future, they should've stubbornly stuck with the initial W14 design and focus on the other areas like the front wing, rear wing, and floor, and also pushing the driver position further rearwards. But the most important area they should've focused on is the suspension geometry which worked extremely well but they're limited with rear tyres overheating currently. They would've had a massive advantage in terms of tyres if the zero-pod concept was still around.

Now, Mercedes are having trouble with the current sidepod/aero concept that doesn't work well with the suspension geometry or how the car operates/drives and that's a tough pill to swallow. Mercedes can get back on track if they focus on the reworking the aero wake but as @Space-Heat said, it'll take 8-10 weeks or longer.

Merc has unfortunately failed in these sets of regulations.

Mercedes did stubbornly stick to their concept while telling hamilton to shut up and that he didnt know what he was talking about, with Toto later admitting they were wrong and sticking with the zero pod concept was their biggest mistake after testing in 2024, you can watch it all on netflix. Allison also said last year he doesnt think the zeropods concept will ever return.

[Sieper]

Zero chance then.

[SB15]

It's soo ironic that the Zero-pod was being looked at from a lot of teams and now for the next set of regulations.

Lewis's assumption about "Advantage locked in for years" maybe isn't as far fetched as previously believed, it may seem that the effects of Hamilton's feedback may of came back to bite Mercedes in the now future, they should've stubbornly stuck with the initial W14 design and focus on the other areas like the front wing, rear wing, and floor, and also pushing the driver position further rearwards. But the most important area they should've focused on is the suspension geometry which worked extremely well but they're limited with rear tyres overheating currently. They would've had a massive advantage in terms of tyres if the zero-pod concept was still around.

Now, Mercedes are having trouble with the current sidepod/aero concept that doesn't work well with the suspension geometry or how the car operates/drives and that's a tough pill to swallow. Mercedes can get back on track if they focus on the reworking the aero wake but as @Space-Heat said, it'll take 8-10 weeks or longer.

Merc has unfortunately failed in these sets of regulations.

Mercedes did stubbornly stick to their concept while telling hamilton to shut up and that he didnt know what he was talking about, with Toto later admitting they were wrong and sticking with the zero pod concept was their biggest mistake after testing in 2024, you can watch it all on netflix. Allison also said last year he doesnt think the zeropods concept will ever return.

That's what they said in 2023/2024. However this year seems to be an entirely different story. They never had this type of problems with the rears overheating until they switch the concept. Remember the W14 in Monaco 2023, their tyre degradation was almost cut in half once they introduced the down washing sidepods. And that is a very important fact that many of us need to remember.

We as fans thought the floor will solve the issues, then it was the sidepods would solve the issue, next it was the suspension will solve the issues, now it's brake cooling will solve the issues. But it seems to be a fatal flaw in how they design their aero particularly, the side-pods and Venturi tunnel exits.

Merc will be very glad to never these regulations ever again.

[ringo]

Loks like W16 has similar characteristics to W15. This question was unanswered at the start of winter testing. The car showed more consistency over a lap, but did it still have sensitivity to temperature? Does it only perform well when its cold and melt away its tyres when it's hot?
Well George Russell thinks the car has the same fundamnetal issue as the W15.
He had a strange feeling in the car from the reconnosaince lap up and deep into the race. The pitwall could not see anything alarming in the data.
Mercedes weren't showing their usual 2nd or 3rd best pace this weekend and the climate seems to be one of f the major contributors.
They need cold temps to run fast.

Thermal expansion does not explain it if it were ride height impacted performance. It may well be brake temperature management. Maybe they design too exact and overheat the rears if ambient is above a certain temp?