2025 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[SB15]

This is purely speculative, but if they changed the rear brake duct internals then it may not have worked as intended and instead just overheated the rear tires. Russells rear tires were melted after 5 or 6 laps. You could see the dark black bands on the surface of the tire in the rear facing camera.

Merc used their C5s in quali which takes a lot of life out.. 5+ laps worth on such soft compounds I would guess. And they already have a tyre wear problem in some conditions (see Saudi). Using that C5 tyre in quali also distorted their actual pace; I would say in quali they were not the 3rd fastest car. Using the medium in quali allowed them to overachieve on Saturday and directly penalised them on Sunday which made it quite a stunning and noticeable drop-off, and hence a point of discussion. On the hard tyre Russell's degradation was ok

For me it's probably a combination of factors. They introduced stiffer wings (both front and rear proven by Vanja) which cost them absolute laptime, they had a raft of upgrades which reset their understanding of their car somewhat, and their quali strategy amplified their tyre struggles

George was complaining during the recce laps before the grid about a strange feeling at the back of the car. Mechanics checked it on the grid and could find no mechanical issue. I think what he was feeling even since the recce lap was that the rear tire thread was so hot that the thread was moving on the straights. Hard tire has higher operating temp. They use alternate sets of tires ( used M/S) on the recce laps. Sunday was the warmest day of the week and with the high fuel load. Mercedes insisted that there were updates to improve race pace and some which would not be visible.

Something just seems off, and Amus not covering it thus far is even more strange. Smacks of Mercedes hiding the real reasons for their rear tire issues in Imola. Could be anything from TDs to updates in the rear suspension and wheel bodywork not working as expected.

We'll have to wait for an explanation until the Akkodis Race Debrief.

[SB15]

This is purely speculative, but if they changed the rear brake duct internals then it may not have worked as intended and instead just overheated the rear tires. Russells rear tires were melted after 5 or 6 laps. You could see the dark black bands on the surface of the tire in the rear facing camera.

Merc used their C5s in quali which takes a lot of life out.. 5+ laps worth on such soft compounds I would guess. And they already have a tyre wear problem in some conditions (see Saudi). Using that C5 tyre in quali also distorted their actual pace; I would say in quali they were not the 3rd fastest car. Using the medium in quali allowed them to overachieve on Saturday and directly penalised them on Sunday which made it quite a stunning and noticeable drop-off, and hence a point of discussion. On the hard tyre Russell's degradation was ok

For me it's probably a combination of factors. They introduced stiffer wings (both front and rear proven by Vanja) which cost them absolute laptime, they had a raft of upgrades which reset their understanding of their car somewhat, and their quali strategy amplified their tyre struggles

George was complaining during the recce laps before the grid about a strange feeling at the back of the car. Mechanics checked it on the grid and could find no mechanical issue. I think what he was feeling even since the recce lap was that the rear tire thread was so hot that the thread was moving on the straights. Hard tire has higher operating temp. They use alternate sets of tires ( used M/S) on the recce laps. Sunday was the warmest day of the week and with the high fuel load. Mercedes insisted that there were updates to improve race pace and some which would not be visible.

Something just seems off, and Amus not covering it thus far is even more strange. Smacks of Mercedes hiding the real reasons for their rear tire issues in Imola. Could be anything from TDs to updates in the rear suspension and wheel bodywork not working as expected.

Actually better question, are Mercedes messing with the toe-angle?

Usually you would want more toe-out or close to zero on the front wheels, but since these new regulation of car are based on on outwash, wouldn't introducing more toe-in on fronts and more on the rears keep the front wheel wake away from the rear tyres?

[Lasssept]

Motorsport It

Mercedes believes that the new wing used at Imola is better than the previous one, but does not dissolve the reservation on the rest in the innovations introduced at the Enzo and Dino Ferrari.

Investigations will be needed to understand if they played an important role in the W16's racing difficulties.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-me ... /10724522/

[AR3-GP]

Actually better question, are Mercedes messing with the toe-angle?

Usually you would want more toe-out or close to zero on the front wheels, but since these new regulation of car are based on on outwash, wouldn't introducing more toe-in on fronts and more on the rears keep the front wheel wake away from the rear tyres?

I'm not sure. It's an interesting idea that you say. I'm sure that the teams take everything into consideration in order to increase performance.

[AR3-GP]

From tech thread

The position of the upper, lead wishbone arm of the rear suspension was relocated for Imola, with the inboard pickup point moved down lower and closer to the lead arm of the lower wishbone.

The change will clearly have impact from both an aerodynamic and mechanical point of view, with the latter more about being able to trade some of their ability to get the tyres in the right window for qualifying, for a more stable operating window during the race, which has been an issue for Mercedes for some time now.

This is only exacerbated further when the track temperatures are higher on a race day when compared with qualifying, as noted by team representative Bradley Lord.

“The big limitation today was rear axle for us and rear overheating,” Lord told media including PlanetF1.com after the race at Imola.

“We have found ourselves front limited at some circuits so far this year, so we’ve got the challenge of the work this weekend has been on the rear axle and that’s been our big limitation. It’s clear.

“It felt like the gap between our qualifying pace and our race pace was, if anything, bigger this weekend and in the race today, rather than smaller, which obviously was the aim of the work that we’ve been doing.

“So lots for us to dig through and understand better in order to see where we’ve made improvements with the car and where potentially we’ve taken the wrong path.”

https://www.planetf1.com/features/merce ... p-analysis

[SB15]

From tech thread

The position of the upper, lead wishbone arm of the rear suspension was relocated for Imola, with the inboard pickup point moved down lower and closer to the lead arm of the lower wishbone.

The change will clearly have impact from both an aerodynamic and mechanical point of view, with the latter more about being able to trade some of their ability to get the tyres in the right window for qualifying, for a more stable operating window during the race, which has been an issue for Mercedes for some time now.

This is only exacerbated further when the track temperatures are higher on a race day when compared with qualifying, as noted by team representative Bradley Lord.

“The big limitation today was rear axle for us and rear overheating,” Lord told media including PlanetF1.com after the race at Imola.

“We have found ourselves front limited at some circuits so far this year, so we’ve got the challenge of the work this weekend has been on the rear axle and that’s been our big limitation. It’s clear.

“It felt like the gap between our qualifying pace and our race pace was, if anything, bigger this weekend and in the race today, rather than smaller, which obviously was the aim of the work that we’ve been doing.

“So lots for us to dig through and understand better in order to see where we’ve made improvements with the car and where potentially we’ve taken the wrong path.”

https://www.planetf1.com/features/merce ... p-analysis

I think they absolutely gotten the setup very wrong or this was intentional. Almost borderline insane and made the car very stiff which had a very profound impact on ride that George was complaining about. George also thought something broke off on the rear because of how stiff it was, and I think the way Kimi rode the Kerbs might've shooken the car so much that something broke off. They might've used this weekend as a test session if anything.

Why do I believe it was soo stiff? Mercedes were never good in high speed corner, that comes as a result of stiffer setups.

So Mercedes could be lying, they probably know for sure why the rears were overheating.

[OverheatedTurbo]

It pisses me off that Mercedes hasn’t won a single race so far. High chance that they go winless this final season.

[zibby43]

ONE THING though. And I think people have missed this. Merc, George all of them said after practice that their race pace was GOOD. That is shocking when you think about it considering how bad it was in the race. That right there shows seemingly a team that doesn't know what it's doing and is just confused. They knew and said repeatedly that they had to address their race pace. They bring updates (some) to fix this. Run it in practice (no rain no sprint) and declare that the race pace is good and they're looking forward to the race. And then have THAT race? Literally worst of the season. Like it was terrible. Tires near splitting.

What were they seeing? What are the looking at? It''s like a team chasing its own shadow. Like zero pods they've built a car with great theoretical pace but not usable pace. The baseline is strong but in this set of regulations that's just the beginning of the story. Other teams even those late to the party have figured it out. What's wrong with Merc? Are they really gonna be passed by Williams now? It's been one clown show after the other. For 4 years! Wow

And they've performed rather well in hot races this year. This over simplification is just immature and I doubt even they themselves believe otherwise they're even more confused than I thought. AND anyone noticed that even in the beginning of the season when they were doing well their some of their no shows compared to Mcl and RB has been in the COOLER rain! They're a complete non factor when it's wet. Watch first race of the season Australia again. Like this car has literally one window only. Whatever that is. Whatever that window is, whenever it's performed well, never looked like winning a race sadly.

Clown show

So, it looks like the car was heavily impacted by flexible parts because of multiple TD that addresses that as well as with the addition of a supposed Tyre wear TD.

Well TD’s or not, it doesn’t matter because it shows a fatal flaw with the cars overall aero package. And the W15’s problems which I believe wasn’t really major problems because this team stubbornly doesn’t look at its aero design.

And you know what doesn’t help? Although while improving on race pace, George’s dependency of leaning more towards outright Qualifying pace doesn’t help the situation either.

I know Kimi is still a rookie, but his biggest strength has always been his race pace. If I were Toto, they need to focus on race simulations for now on. Even if you don’t qualify well, points are awarded on a Sunday where it really matters.

Did the new TDs magically not affect Russell’s qualifying lap where he was a tenth from pole and could’ve had it if he hadn’t been bothered by Sainz?

This TD talk is such a red herring.

[AR3-GP]

Did the new TDs magically not affect Russell’s qualifying lap where he was a tenth from pole and could’ve had it if he hadn’t been bothered by Sainz?

I don't know about the TD, but in reference to the qual gaps:

Russell did the final run on mediums (better tire). The real gap was ~3 tenths to Mclaren/Red Bull on the C6. That was the gap in Q1 and Q2 vs Verstappen's best time from Q1 when everyone ran the soft. Antonelli was knocked out in Q2 and that's what happens when the car is slower. Then Antonelli doesn't have the margin to also make Q3 since he typically runs 3-4 tenths behind Russell's pace.

For Q3, Russell had a tow on his banker lap on the soft, and finished 2.5 tenths back. Tow corrected, again closer to 3+ tenths. Then he switched to the medium tire for the final run which was just the better performing tire compared to the soft. That's why he was able to challenge for pole. If everyone else did medium runs, then you would see the 3 tenths gap again.

There can be many explanations for the challenging weekend in Imola. I could not rule anything out with certainty.

[venkyhere]

Why do I believe it was soo stiff? Mercedes were never good in high speed corner, that comes as a result of stiffer setups.

I thought it's the other way around :

Stiff suspension will 'help' in high speed cornering - min body movement relative to wheels will ensure no dynamic weight shifts to disturb the kinematic 'balance' (it's important to not 'unload' the inside tyres). As for the tyres gripping the tarmac, there is the high aero-load pressing them down anyway.

Soft suspension will 'help' in slow speed cornering - there isn't going to be much aero load => nothing great to 'aid' pressing the tyres down into the tarmac. So that has to come from mechanical weight transfer towards front for braking, towards rear under acceleration, dynamic camber changes to the tyres (roll being useful) in corners thereby maximizing the contact patch (sacrifice some contact patch from inside and provide it to the outside tyre, where the mechanical weight is pressing it down better) effectiveness, etc etc... all of this comes from a soft suspension.

[erudite450]

One poor race and all of a sudden the writing is on the wall and it's the end of the world as we know it.

One could be forgiven for thinking there are a few posters on here willing and cheering on the idea of them being pegged back or similar, rather than actually having any solid evidence to support that idea. Speculation is fun but I would rather wait until we have a definitive idea.

In terms of a "proper" circuit, it's likely their next more favourable track is Montreal based on the characteristics of the car. If it all falls apart there as well, then I will gladly concede something has happened to them or they've screwed the pooch themselves as it were. But until that moment, I think it's premature to be declaring that it's all gone wrong and they're now the 5th fastest team behind Williams and Ferrari all of a sudden.

Mercedes have always gone well in Barcelona.

[avantman]

Did the new TDs magically not affect Russell’s qualifying lap where he was a tenth from pole and could’ve had it if he hadn’t been bothered by Sainz?

I don't know about the TD, but in reference to the qual gaps:

Russell did the final run on mediums (better tire). The real gap was ~3 tenths to Mclaren/Red Bull on the C6. That was the gap in Q1 and Q2 vs Verstappen's best time from Q1 when everyone ran the soft. Antonelli was knocked out in Q2 and that's what happens when the car is slower. Then Antonelli doesn't have the margin to also make Q3 since he typically runs 3-4 tenths behind Russell's pace.

For Q3, Russell had a tow on his banker lap on the soft, and finished 2.5 tenths back. Tow corrected, again closer to 3+ tenths. Then he switched to the medium tire for the final run which was just the better performing tire compared to the soft. That's why he was able to challenge for pole. If everyone else did medium runs, then you would see the 3 tenths gap again.

There can be many explanations for the challenging weekend in Imola. I could not rule anything out with certainty.

Russell didn't have such big tow on his 1st lap in Q3 if he had any. He gained less than a tenth relative to his previous run (2nd run on soft in Q2), and literally nothing compared with his first run in Q2. His run out of the last corner on his 2nd Q3 run on medium was very poor because he had to give a way for cars on fast laps, which is why he lost time on the straight, otherwise he would've been P2 at least. He mentioned that himself after Quali.
And itt's quite strange that you give so much meaning to lap times set in Q1, measuring gaps between Mercedes and Mclaren pace. Not only we all know Max is probably the only driver who is always on it from lap 1 in Q1 coming closer to the limit quicker than other drivers, whereas other take few laps to find their references, Max had a tow worth 0.15s on his first lap in Q1.
Antonelli I think simply wasn't on it this weekend, not being able to deal with all the pressure, attention, being distracted by his classmates and family too much. You cannot excuse his lack of pace in Q2 simply saying car was not fast, whereas he himself was almost 4 tenths faster in FP3 having just one attempt on soft tire. And their were running lower power mode in FP3. Russell simply wasn't comfortable on soft at all, which we saw from him in FP3 as well.

[CjC]

ONE THING though. And I think people have missed this. Merc, George all of them said after practice that their race pace was GOOD. That is shocking when you think about it considering how bad it was in the race. That right there shows seemingly a team that doesn't know what it's doing and is just confused. They knew and said repeatedly that they had to address their race pace. They bring updates (some) to fix this. Run it in practice (no rain no sprint) and declare that the race pace is good and they're looking forward to the race. And then have THAT race? Literally worst of the season. Like it was terrible. Tires near splitting.

What were they seeing? What are the looking at? It''s like a team chasing its own shadow. Like zero pods they've built a car with great theoretical pace but not usable pace. The baseline is strong but in this set of regulations that's just the beginning of the story. Other teams even those late to the party have figured it out. What's wrong with Merc? Are they really gonna be passed by Williams now? It's been one clown show after the other. For 4 years! Wow

And they've performed rather well in hot races this year. This over simplification is just immature and I doubt even they themselves believe otherwise they're even more confused than I thought. AND anyone noticed that even in the beginning of the season when they were doing well their some of their no shows compared to Mcl and RB has been in the COOLER rain! They're a complete non factor when it's wet. Watch first race of the season Australia again. Like this car has literally one window only. Whatever that is. Whatever that window is, whenever it's performed well, never looked like winning a race sadly.

Clown show

So, it looks like the car was heavily impacted by flexible parts because of multiple TD that addresses that as well as with the addition of a supposed Tyre wear TD.

Well TD’s or not, it doesn’t matter because it shows a fatal flaw with the cars overall aero package. And the W15’s problems which I believe wasn’t really major problems because this team stubbornly doesn’t look at its aero design.

And you know what doesn’t help? Although while improving on race pace, George’s dependency of leaning more towards outright Qualifying pace doesn’t help the situation either.

I know Kimi is still a rookie, but his biggest strength has always been his race pace. If I were Toto, they need to focus on race simulations for now on. Even if you don’t qualify well, points are awarded on a Sunday where it really matters.

Did the new TDs magically not affect Russell’s qualifying lap where he was a tenth from pole and could’ve had it if he hadn’t been bothered by Sainz?

This TD talk is such a red herring.

Whilst I also think the TD will be a red herring.

I’d caution gauging its impact, even though Russell struggled in Imola he was effectively racing against non-Spain compliant wings.

I was so surprised that they brought a stiffer wing 2 races before it was required. You never know it might play off in the long run as you say it was still close to pole like in the previous races

[Matt2725]

One poor race and all of a sudden the writing is on the wall and it's the end of the world as we know it.

One could be forgiven for thinking there are a few posters on here willing and cheering on the idea of them being pegged back or similar, rather than actually having any solid evidence to support that idea. Speculation is fun but I would rather wait until we have a definitive idea.

In terms of a "proper" circuit, it's likely their next more favourable track is Montreal based on the characteristics of the car. If it all falls apart there as well, then I will gladly concede something has happened to them or they've screwed the pooch themselves as it were. But until that moment, I think it's premature to be declaring that it's all gone wrong and they're now the 5th fastest team behind Williams and Ferrari all of a sudden.

Mercedes have always gone well in Barcelona.

Traditionally but the circuit characteristics may cause issues with how their car is behaving. But with the new floor that may change their fortunes.

[SB15]

One poor race and all of a sudden the writing is on the wall and it's the end of the world as we know it.

One could be forgiven for thinking there are a few posters on here willing and cheering on the idea of them being pegged back or similar, rather than actually having any solid evidence to support that idea. Speculation is fun but I would rather wait until we have a definitive idea.

In terms of a "proper" circuit, it's likely their next more favourable track is Montreal based on the characteristics of the car. If it all falls apart there as well, then I will gladly concede something has happened to them or they've screwed the pooch themselves as it were. But until that moment, I think it's premature to be declaring that it's all gone wrong and they're now the 5th fastest team behind Williams and Ferrari all of a sudden.

Mercedes have always gone well in Barcelona.

Traditionally but the circuit characteristics may cause issues with how their car is behaving. But with the new floor that may change their fortunes.

Especially if the floor edge is more in line with Redbull and Mclaren.