2025 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Quantum]

If only they had the same team mate in consecutive years to compare them.

Send Leclerc to Mercedes with Hamilton in the other seat. It simply wouldnt be the same as at Ferrari.

Didn’t LEC beat out Vettel after he had been in Ferrari for while already?

Also...Didn't Ricciardo beat out Vettel after he had been in Red Bull for a while already? (Didn't turn out too well for Ricciardo)

You're comparing apples with pears. An established driver within a team has an extrinsic advantage.
Just in 2025, witness Red Bull.
Alpine. Gasly swept both Doohan and Cola.
Williams. Albon rinsing Sainz.
Mercedes. Rookie Antonelli yet to beat George.
Haas. Ocon cleaning house with Bearman.
Sauber. Hulkenberg putting numbers on Bortoleto

Expecting Hamilton to have an equal footing to Leclerc even just from an operational point of view let alone complexities like different chassis/engine/gearbox/engineer/stratagem/location/language is well...out there.

Russell unseated Hamilton much to the his base disgust. But yea, beating Hamilton entrenched in Mercedes working methods for a decade is not the same as leaving Merc to go to Ferrari. I mean, does it really need to be said?

[djones]

In current driver form (i.e. people like Hamilton past their peak), I firmly believe Max is way ahead of anybody in terms of overall speed and ability to win or score points.

George may get in the top 5, but likely not. His qualifying pace is great, but his race pace is generally just not up there with the very best. Wheel to wheel, he is not exactly amazing either, if we are being honest.

If they have the budget (which they probably do), then George out and Max in is a complete no-brainer for the future of the team.

[Wynters]

What are you trying to prove mentioning Hamilton's rating from 2015?

You were the one who brought up his history prior to going up against Russell? I simply pointed out that you treat the same sources as unimpeachable truth when they back up your point and then totally dismiss them when they don't.

And yes, by bigger margin and more importantly much more consistently than Russell was ever capable of. That's not my opinion, that is just a fact.

Those are pretty sweeping generalisations, not facts. As an example, you might want to compare Russell's performance vs Hamilton at the same point last year to where Leclerc and Hamilton are this year. A Leclerc who has home field advantage and Hamilton is another year older.

[Matt2725]

In current driver form (i.e. people like Hamilton past their peak), I firmly believe Max is way ahead of anybody in terms of overall speed and ability to win or score points.

George may get in the top 5, but likely not. His qualifying pace is great, but his race pace is generally just not up there with the very best. Wheel to wheel, he is not exactly amazing either, if we are being honest.

If they have the budget (which they probably do), then George out and Max in is a complete no-brainer for the future of the team.

Sorry but this is a really, really awful take. Not in terms of Max being the best, that's probably the case yes. But the rest is so hilariously false, it's not worth a proper response.

[Wynters]

In current driver form (i.e. people like Hamilton past their peak), I firmly believe Max is way ahead of anybody in terms of overall speed and ability to win or score points.

Verstappen has been up against a total of two drivers who weren't rookies during his time at RBR. Ricciardo, who beat him two seasons out of three (when he became an engine testmule), and Perez, who wasn't even good enough for the midfield McLaren of 2013, let alone a front running team in the modern era. It's hard to know if he's doing miracles in a car when there isn't another point of reference. He's also a magnet for unneccesary crashes. Obviously, those crashes often work in his favour, but sometimes they don't and the cost-cap is a thing. Russell isn't prone to those and he's proved himself against a pretty decent reference over multiple years.

I don't know who is the faster of the pair, but Russell is more reliable and has better comparison points. I'd love to see them in the same car and at a team that actually allowed racing. Same with Leclerc. Bring back three-car teams!

[avantman]

What are you trying to prove mentioning Hamilton's rating from 2015?

You were the one who brought up his history prior to going up against Russell? I simply pointed out that you treat the same sources as unimpeachable truth when they back up your point and then totally dismiss them when they don't.

And yes, by bigger margin and more importantly much more consistently than Russell was ever capable of. That's not my opinion, that is just a fact.

Those are pretty sweeping generalisations, not facts. As an example, you might want to compare Russell's performance vs Hamilton at the same point last year to where Leclerc and Hamilton are this year. A Leclerc who has home field advantage and Hamilton is another year older.

I brought those ranking only to compare directly the best young drivers of this generation...with regards to how F1 team principals rate them. They all started their career almost at the same time....2018-2019 so those ranking are relevant. Russell wasn't rated as highly as Leclerc and Norris, and now Piastri as well (was rated higher than Russell both in 2023 and 2024). I get that his fans disagree but I personally can easily see why is that and why do they think so. In my individual driver ranking Russell was never in top 3 either. I do not already say I would not put him top 3 this year, let's see.

[Quantum]

In current driver form (i.e. people like Hamilton past their peak), I firmly believe Max is way ahead of anybody in terms of overall speed and ability to win or score points.

George may get in the top 5, but likely not. His qualifying pace is great, but his race pace is generally just not up there with the very best. Wheel to wheel, he is not exactly amazing either, if we are being honest.

If they have the budget (which they probably do), then George out and Max in is a complete no-brainer for the future of the team.

Max wheel to wheel? (we're being honest with George, why not with Max?)

There is a distinct risk in Merc signing Max.
Firstly, there is precedent that Red Bull will favour their number 1's. Both Vettel and Max stand out.
And chatterings with some peers there's a view that Red Bull are pushing the boat farrrrr out for Max.
Perez having a 0.4 gap to Max and being used as a rear gunner in 2021, to their dominant seasons in 2022 and 2023 with respective gaps of 0.36 and then 0.46. An average gap of around 0.4.
In 2024 this goes to 0.66 and a delta of 0.543%.

Did Perez suddenly forget to drive? No.

Did Lawson? No.

Did Tsunoda? No.

Max is fast, fo damn sho. But a journeyman Perez can hang to around 0.4 of him which isn't shabby. Until 2024.
First 6 races:
Q5 R2
Q3 R2
Q3 R5
Q2 R2
Q2 R3
(Macca revival @Miami)Q4 R4
then.....by some coincidence this horrific sequence.
Q11 R8
Q16 R(ret)
Q16 R(ret)
Q8 R8
Q8 R7
Q19 R17
Q16 R7
Q3 R7
Q5 R6
Q8 R8
Q4 R(ret)
Q13 R10
Q10 R7
Q18 R17
Q13 R11
Q16 R10
Q9 R(ret)
Q10 R(ret).

Macca's revival and Perez downfall into Vcarb style results is not by coincidence. RB went all in on Max.
Makes for messianical praise, but the anomalous data stands out like a sore thumb. It's like suddenly, McLaren are a huge threat....and Sergio forgets how to drive a car with the staggering point that he finishes top 5 first 5 races, to then have 0/19 top 5 finishes....
Coincidence? Nahhh


To round the point off to it's conclusion, Mercedes let George and Lewis have at it. They did not suddenly throw the kitchen sink at one driver and leave the other hang out to dry. As per Checo and now Yuki/Lawson.
Max going to Mercedes will mean he risks having his bubble popped, unless Mercedes change their modus operandi to accommodate Max. And I doubt they will, but I've been wrong a fair few times.

It does beg the question, will more teams be focussing the majority of their resources into one car and aiming to solve solutions based on that one car in a limited resource formula?

[kurtj]

In current driver form (i.e. people like Hamilton past their peak), I firmly believe Max is way ahead of anybody in terms of overall speed and ability to win or score points.

George may get in the top 5, but likely not. His qualifying pace is great, but his race pace is generally just not up there with the very best. Wheel to wheel, he is not exactly amazing either, if we are being honest.

If they have the budget (which they probably do), then George out and Max in is a complete no-brainer for the future of the team.

Even Max, when the setup is wrong, he looks second rate. Race pace is a reflection of car's capabilities. Max has driven very good cars at Red Bull in the last 5 or 6 years that have been kind on tyres and given good race pace. George is driving laboratory on wheels for the past 4 years. If such basic details are missing in analysis, the analysis would be extremely hollow. Arguably, Max is total trash when it comes to wheel to wheel racing, whereas George has been very respectable and can race hard without taking the other car out. When the car is good, George has delivered flawless weekends.

[Wynters]

It does beg the question, will more teams be focussing the majority of their resources into one car and aiming to solve solutions based on that one car in a limited resource formula?

I've wondered for a while about that. If you don't need the WCC money (RBR, Ferrari, etc), then bringing on a pay driver who will finish outside of the points gets you a) pay driver money, b) maximum time for development to underpin your lead driver and c) you have a dedicated test mule giving you race distance after race distance of data (as well as in-race tyre data). You don't need to produce double the parts, just parts for your lead driver. You can produce twice the upgrades, backed by more development time, with way more testing time and with maximum pay driver cash. And you've a rolling roadblock whenever you need it. That your second driver doesn't score points is a feature, not a bug.

If all you are after is wins (and advertising/sponsors), then it seems stupid not to. Most importantly, it lets you win a World Championship that a more traditionally run team wouldn't (it's almost impossible to juggle resources like this to pull out a surprise WCC, but it seems relatively easy to pull off for a single driver).

[Dee]

In current driver form (i.e. people like Hamilton past their peak), I firmly believe Max is way ahead of anybody in terms of overall speed and ability to win or score points.

George may get in the top 5, but likely not. His qualifying pace is great, but his race pace is generally just not up there with the very best. Wheel to wheel, he is not exactly amazing either, if we are being honest.

If they have the budget (which they probably do), then George out and Max in is a complete no-brainer for the future of the team.

Even Max, when the setup is wrong, he looks second rate. Race pace is a reflection of car's capabilities. Max has driven very good cars at Red Bull in the last 5 or 6 years that have been kind on tyres and given good race pace. George is driving laboratory on wheels for the past 4 years. If such basic details are missing in analysis, the analysis would be extremely hollow. Arguably, Max is total trash when it comes to wheel to wheel racing, whereas George has been very respectable and can race hard without taking the other car out. When the car is good, George has delivered flawless weekends.

Max - second rate with a wrong setup - total trash in wheel to wheel

That's all you need to see to rate this comment

[Dee]

It does beg the question, will more teams be focussing the majority of their resources into one car and aiming to solve solutions based on that one car in a limited resource formula?

I've wondered for a while about that. If you don't need the WCC money (RBR, Ferrari, etc), then bringing on a pay driver who will finish outside of the points gets you a) pay driver money, b) maximum time for development to underpin your lead driver and c) you have a dedicated test mule giving you race distance after race distance of data (as well as in-race tyre data). You don't need to produce double the parts, just parts for your lead driver. You can produce twice the upgrades, backed by more development time, with way more testing time and with maximum pay driver cash. And you've a rolling roadblock whenever you need it. That your second driver doesn't score points is a feature, not a bug.

If all you are after is wins (and advertising/sponsors), then it seems stupid not to. Most importantly, it lets you win a World Championship that a more traditionally run team wouldn't (it's almost impossible to juggle resources like this to pull out a surprise WCC, but it seems relatively easy to pull off for a single driver).

This you can only do with an exceptional driver, people say that Max alone is worth 0.2 per lap in performance, that's 10 to 14 seconds, then add on more if you give him a car he likes. If a driver can't have that impact, then making a more balanced car so that both drivers can get you points is the way to go. RB didn't need a 2nd driver in 2023 to win the WCC and WDC.

[SB15]

You guys having a whole debate is hilarious.

[avantman]

You guys having a whole debate is hilarious.

Mercedes fans having a talk about their future driver is kinda natural, no? )

[kurtj]

In current driver form (i.e. people like Hamilton past their peak), I firmly believe Max is way ahead of anybody in terms of overall speed and ability to win or score points.

George may get in the top 5, but likely not. His qualifying pace is great, but his race pace is generally just not up there with the very best. Wheel to wheel, he is not exactly amazing either, if we are being honest.

If they have the budget (which they probably do), then George out and Max in is a complete no-brainer for the future of the team.

Even Max, when the setup is wrong, he looks second rate. Race pace is a reflection of car's capabilities. Max has driven very good cars at Red Bull in the last 5 or 6 years that have been kind on tyres and given good race pace. George is driving laboratory on wheels for the past 4 years. If such basic details are missing in analysis, the analysis would be extremely hollow. Arguably, Max is total trash when it comes to wheel to wheel racing, whereas George has been very respectable and can race hard without taking the other car out. When the car is good, George has delivered flawless weekends.

Max - second rate with a wrong setup - total trash in wheel to wheel

That's all you need to see to rate this comment

A small glimpse. Now compare that to George's 7 years in F1.

[Dee]

[/media]

Even Max, when the setup is wrong, he looks second rate. Race pace is a reflection of car's capabilities. Max has driven very good cars at Red Bull in the last 5 or 6 years that have been kind on tyres and given good race pace. George is driving laboratory on wheels for the past 4 years. If such basic details are missing in analysis, the analysis would be extremely hollow. Arguably, Max is total trash when it comes to wheel to wheel racing, whereas George has been very respectable and can race hard without taking the other car out. When the car is good, George has delivered flawless weekends.

Max - second rate with a wrong setup - total trash in wheel to wheel

That's all you need to see to rate this comment

A small glimpse. Now compare that to George's 7 years in F1.

As much as you hate Max, he has never;

* Gotten out of the car and gone over to another driver and intentionally hit them in the head after causing the crash they were both in - Bottas - Imola 2021
* Intentionally lied to the stewards to get someone else a penalty - Verstappen - Qatar 2024

Russell has been in many extreme crashes and collisions himself, he is not a saint, but he is the driver you support and yet, you easily look down on Max...