Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

[PlatinumZealot]

When you're dismissing that 86% of a 40,000 sample size of F1 fans said that they care about this stuff, you will clearly dismiss ANY data point ever as unrepresentative, simply out of convenience of argument.

This feels like plain denial of reality. Once again, it's reasonable to say that most F1 fans aren't gonna cry about the current noise of the cars, but it's not the same thing as saying that F1 fans dont care about it at all or at the very least wouldn't prefer better sounding F1 cars. I think it's basically common sense that most would. It seems so obvious that I even wonder if arguing otherwise is being done out of sheer contrarianism than anything else.

Why would I need to consider a statistic from an extremely biased sample? Based on what WardenOfTheNorth said (which you conveniently ignored), it's even more biased than I initially expected.
The fact is it bears no implication on F1 viewers as a whole. Pointing to meaningless statistics and air-pulled "common sense" and "obvious "only showcases your bias, nothing else.

Would a majority prefer V8/V10? We don't know and that's certain. I expect even if it's the case, the margin would be far more modest.

Is the sample extremely biased compared to what? What do you as an unbiased sample?

You would have to do another survey asking all fans say netfilx + website + forum + fans at the race + youtube + F1 TV if they care about the engine noise and the engine technology, then you filter those out and ask them the question on the engine.


With that said, I think the Fans who read "The race" would have a large overlap with the fans who care about the F1 engine sound and the type of engine.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

When you're dismissing that 86% of a 40,000 sample size of F1 fans said that they care about this stuff, you will clearly dismiss ANY data point ever as unrepresentative, simply out of convenience of argument.

This feels like plain denial of reality. Once again, it's reasonable to say that most F1 fans aren't gonna cry about the current noise of the cars, but it's not the same thing as saying that F1 fans dont care about it at all or at the very least wouldn't prefer better sounding F1 cars. I think it's basically common sense that most would. It seems so obvious that I even wonder if arguing otherwise is being done out of sheer contrarianism than anything else.

Why would I need to consider a statistic from an extremely biased sample? Based on what WardenOfTheNorth said (which you conveniently ignored), it's even more biased than I initially expected.
The fact is it bears no implication on F1 viewers as a whole. Pointing to meaningless statistics and air-pulled "common sense" and "obvious "only showcases your bias, nothing else.

Would a majority prefer V8/V10? We don't know and that's certain. I expect even if it's the case, the margin would be far more modest.

Is the sample extremely biased compared to what? What do you as an unbiased sample?

You would have to do another survey asking all fans say netfilx + website + forum + fans at the race + youtube + F1 TV if they care about the engine noise and the engine technology, then you filter those out and ask them the question on the engine.


With that said, I think the Fans who read "The race" would have a large overlap with the fans who care about the F1 engine sound and the type of engine.

What do you mean biased compared to what. Compared to an unbiased sample. In data collection you have bias. It is not compared to another thing. It simply is.

A survey conducted on a social media outlet other about F1 is always going to be biased because it requires that the respondent cares enough about F1 to have engaged with that social media channel, then they have to have a strong enough opinion to respond. It is an accepted norm in any kind of market research that you will get more responses from people with the strongest opinions, which are often not the status quo.

So this sample has inherent bias.

To get a less biased sample you would need to cover multiple channels, including the official F1 social media channels, major broadcasters and any other channels that might get results.

Global F1 viewership per race last year was estimated to be in the region of what, 80 million? The survey got 40,000 responses and so represents the views of less than 1% of viewers. Probably the most engaged viewers at that.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Fans on the street, aka TV viewers, will never hear the engines anyway. So it's kind of not possible to care, even if you want to. How many fans are at the actual circuit? 1%?
There's no way to reproduce the sound of a F1 car on a TV, laptop or headset. The engine sound is barely audible on the broadcast. If I turn the volume to max, I think the rest of the family would kick me out.

If I want to hear cool sound, I'll go to a concert. Wich I recently did. AC/DC is loud! Ironically they start the concerts with a big fat engine sound

Did you know that concert venues now have noise limits. So even big loud rock concerts are not as loud as they once were and many, not all but many, rock bands are not actually using the loud amps on stage any more. Instead they are using digital profiling amps and in ear monitors to keep on stage volume down, with the PA doing most of the heavy lifting!!

AS for F1 PU sound on TV. I agree, it sounds nothing like what it does when you’re stood next to the actual car. Stood next to the actual car it has bass, a throaty mid-range and complex sounds - oh and is still plenty loud with most sources citing a volume between 110 to 120 dB - about the same volume as a rock concert as it happens. FOM needs to sort out the mic placement and sound mixing to deliver more of that sound in the broadcast IMHO!!

Just kill the mic placement conversation please. Shades of colloidal silver and astrology. Lol. Snake oil. Do you really believe that positioning the mic in a certain place will make a dramatic difference?

Not JUST placement, but it absolutely does.

Do you seriously believe that having changing mic placement, microphone type and microphone gain WON’T have an effect??

Just ask any sound engineer or recording engineer.

Mic placement is crucial. This is sound recording 101. Even changing the angle or distance from a sound source can have a drastic effect on the recorded sounds. The following are related to musical recordings, but what it true for one sound source is true for all.

https://www.shure.com/en-us/insights/th ... t-matters/
https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-univ ... are%20lost.
https://www.tonormic.com/blogs/micropho ... nt-matters
https://www.prosoundweb.com/location-lo ... l-quality/

[PlatinumZealot]

Did you know that concert venues now have noise limits. So even big loud rock concerts are not as loud as they once were and many, not all but many, rock bands are not actually using the loud amps on stage any more. Instead they are using digital profiling amps and in ear monitors to keep on stage volume down, with the PA doing most of the heavy lifting!!

AS for F1 PU sound on TV. I agree, it sounds nothing like what it does when you’re stood next to the actual car. Stood next to the actual car it has bass, a throaty mid-range and complex sounds - oh and is still plenty loud with most sources citing a volume between 110 to 120 dB - about the same volume as a rock concert as it happens. FOM needs to sort out the mic placement and sound mixing to deliver more of that sound in the broadcast IMHO!!

Just kill the mic placement conversation please. Shades of colloidal silver and astrology. Lol. Snake oil. Do you really believe that positioning the mic in a certain place will make a dramatic difference?

Not JUST placement, but it absolutely does.

Do you seriously believe that having changing mic placement, microphone type and microphone gain WON’T have an effect??

Just ask any sound engineer or recording engineer.

Mic placement is crucial. This is sound recording 101. Even changing the angle or distance from a sound source can have a drastic effect on the recorded sounds. The following are related to musical recordings, but what it true for one sound source is true for all.

https://www.shure.com/en-us/insights/th ... t-matters/
https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-univ ... are%20lost.
https://www.tonormic.com/blogs/micropho ... nt-matters
https://www.prosoundweb.com/location-lo ... l-quality/

They way you position microphone on stage or in a studio not relate to an F1 car. FIA already did these experiments. The F1 car shape and location of the exhaust the tonal quality if the engine sound... They did this and did not produce anything special.

The NA engines didnt need any special mic placement. Even videos of this cars taken with people's cell phones sound better...

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Just kill the mic placement conversation please. Shades of colloidal silver and astrology. Lol. Snake oil. Do you really believe that positioning the mic in a certain place will make a dramatic difference?

Not JUST placement, but it absolutely does.

Do you seriously believe that having changing mic placement, microphone type and microphone gain WON’T have an effect??

Just ask any sound engineer or recording engineer.

Mic placement is crucial. This is sound recording 101. Even changing the angle or distance from a sound source can have a drastic effect on the recorded sounds. The following are related to musical recordings, but what it true for one sound source is true for all.

https://www.shure.com/en-us/insights/th ... t-matters/
https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-univ ... are%20lost.
https://www.tonormic.com/blogs/micropho ... nt-matters
https://www.prosoundweb.com/location-lo ... l-quality/

They way you position microphone on stage or in a studio not relate to an F1 car. FIA already did these experiments. The F1 car shape and location of the exhaust the tonal quality if the engine sound... They did this and did not produce anything special.

The NA engines didnt need any special mic placement. Even videos of this cars taken with people's cell phones sound better...

So type of mic and mic placement don't matter, but videos taken with a mobile phone sound better. You contradict yourself.

How is that possible if type of mic and mic placement don't matter?

If neither of those things matter then they should sound the same.

Anyway, a sound source is a sound source, whether it be a guitar amp, a human voice or an F1 exhaust. Physics doesn't change just because of the source.

Clearly if you're going to ignore fundamentals of physics on a technical forum, there is no point trying to continue this debate.

[Greg Locock]

92 votes. --- that'll swing em.

[mzso]

You will of course hold onto this argument because you think it's the safest hedge in your attempt to defend your claim that people dont care about noise in F1, but it's also absurd by any common sense standards, and everybody knows it. Even when proven by large scale poll, it really doesn't even need to be. Suggesting that F1 fans dont care about engine noise or wouldn't prefer louder/better sounding engines is such nonsense that it can basically be dismissed out of hand.

I'm so used to weird contrarians on the internet nowadays, this sort of stuff just becomes laughable to me.

You're just repeat your desires and beliefs. You don't even have much for arguments, much less any proof. You're just throwing around "obvious" and common sense and such. It's pointless. You think that everybody or the majority, or "true fans" care about the noise. I don't. Neither of us will prove any of it.
All I see is a very loud very small minority, a fair bit more people enthusiastic about V10, but ultimately don't care that much. And a lot of people who don't care, or don't even know what the V10 sound is.

On the other hand. It is a fact, that introducing the dullest sounding engines ever didn't result in the decline of the popularity of F1. As such it's not a primary concern for the FIA. And I don't see a reason why it should be.

[vorticism]

You don't even have much for arguments, much less any proof.

A big fat slugghish whale.

You don't even have much for arguments, much less any proof.

To everyone else: there was a meme in the USA car market 10-15 years ago about the dream car that the OEMs were failing to deliver: a brown, diesel, manual wagon. Of course, only enthusiasts were desiring such, which was part of the joke--being both true and ridiculous. This was always par for the course for car magazines, which were generally a voice for neither the manufacturers nor the mass market-- this continued into the internet era in comments and forums. Enthusiasts and pundits are not the mass market, and the same dynamic will apply to F1 as they have sought to be more marketable, sought to be less themselves. So the identity crisis will continue as they and ironic mustache boomer try to perfect selling themselves out to an 8 billion hominid viewership because prooofit, and enthusiasts, non-casual fans, etc., will keep critiquing and harping about it because they understand F1's identity better but do not have enough money to placate the greed of F1's current managers.

The sound of NA F1 was a happy accident. They weren't so much curated as they were a side effect of reducing horsepower and costs, and these same forces came back again to, at least ostensibly, replace the V10s with V8s. Then F1 got into the business of curating more marketable engines and aero. The NA engines were deemed not good enough and thus they went down the fuel efficiency rabbit hole--which I don't have a problem with but it must be remembered that this was an act of curation, styling, pretenses, branding. Similarly the '17 aero regs was in part a styling exercise. So we're well into the era of the F1 management acting as marketing execs, so it's within reason for outsiders to wonder about what their next ad campaign will be--and offer suggestions.

[McLarenHonda]

One thing nobody mentions about the return to V8s (V10s are already out of the window) is efficiency!

The 2026 V6T will only produce around 500hp while now it’s producing over 800hp alone without KERS! If we go back to V8 I assume they’ll also be producing around 500hp so that we keep the 50/50 split! A 500hp V8 probably wont need to go to 18K rpm to produce that which means it won’t sound like they used to back in the day!

Also it won’t be anywhere near as efficient as the V6T which also means the fuel tank will have to be much bigger! Thoughts?

[WardenOfTheNorth]

One thing nobody mentions about the return to V8s (V10s are already out of the window) is efficiency!

The 2026 V6T will only produce around 500hp while now it’s producing over 800hp alone without KERS! If we go back to V8 I assume they’ll also be producing around 500hp so that we keep the 50/50 split! A 500hp V8 probably wont need to go to 18K rpm to produce that which means it won’t sound like they used to back in the day!

Also it won’t be anywhere near as efficient as the V6T which also means the fuel tank will have to be much bigger! Thoughts?

All good points and all arguments for why the manufacturers may not wish to go that route.

If sound mattered to the rule makers then they'd allow the V6 to rev higher.

[ACRO]

The ICE was always the heart and the soul of a F1 car , nowadays its more and more just a hidden part that has to do its job inside the system as efficient as possible .

Since an actual f1 may sound respectable at the track it is silent enough to sound boring on tv .

A V10 atmo was simply brutal at the track , loud enough the thrill was present even infront the tv .

But its not ONLY the engine .

Watching races with senna vs prost in 80-90s or schumacher vs häkkinen early 2000,s is imho not even remotely comparable with watching races today .

Boxing is similar . You cannot compare mike tyson in the 80,s with boxing today

[Partymood]

With these cars they only eliminated the noisy part...just my 2 cents

No. They use much less fuel...

Incorrect. They use a lot more fuel to produce that kind of technology...

[Airshifter]

92 votes. --- that'll swing em.

If it hits 95 votes consider it a done deal.

[PlatinumZealot]

One thing nobody mentions about the return to V8s (V10s are already out of the window) is efficiency!

The 2026 V6T will only produce around 500hp while now it’s producing over 800hp alone without KERS! If we go back to V8 I assume they’ll also be producing around 500hp so that we keep the 50/50 split! A 500hp V8 probably wont need to go to 18K rpm to produce that which means it won’t sound like they used to back in the day!

Also it won’t be anywhere near as efficient as the V6T which also means the fuel tank will have to be much bigger! Thoughts?

Well not really. It will be more than 500bhp for a number of reasons. The heavier V6T will charge more from the braking so those will have more powerfull electric motors than the lighter NA V8 - if we are maximizing energy re-use)... The other thing is torque fill.. The NA V8 will have a narrower power band for acceleration and still needs higher velocity for brake regen so it will end up with a higher rev range. I don't have the answers but could very well be 18k rpms!!

I am sad bout FIA seemingly scrapping the V10... Maybe because they dont want too much power.... And I really don't want us to settle on the V8 then hear people crying about wanting a V10 after that point. They should just go V10 and be done with it.

[vorticism]

A 500hp [NA] V8 probably wont need to go to 18K rpm to produce that...

It will if the displacement is reduced enough. Sub 2 litre V8?