2026 Aston Martin Aramco Formula One Team

[Rikhart]

IMO, the catastrophe of it all is probably the best thing to happen. Forces them to make changes for the better, AMR and Honda and how they work together. It just wont be in time before ALO retires sadly, but in 3-4yrs out AMR will be a force imo.

So being by far the worst car is the best thing to happen?

[604gtir]

IMO, the catastrophe of it all is probably the best thing to happen. Forces them to make changes for the better, AMR and Honda and how they work together. It just wont be in time before ALO retires sadly, but in 3-4yrs out AMR will be a force imo.

So being by far the worst car is the best thing to happen?

yes building on poor processes, poor correlation across sim, cfd, etc etc will not net you a championship winning car. they might be able to scrape by with a competitive car, but not a championship car.

it forces them to reevaluate and change, which they may have not done if they were midfieldish.

[avada]

If they were throwing upgrades chasing performance, it would be a concern for everyone, but all the changes made to the car have been to identify and address reliability problems.

There's no reason a team of this caliber with the facilities they have would need 3 or 4 years to deliver a good car.

Also, everyone knows the targets now for the PU. Honda showed in 2018 that they are capable of delivering a competitive PU in a year.

How did you come to that conclusion? They started disastrously in 2015, and it took to around 2020 for them to be comparable to Mercedes.

[Brahmal]

yes building on poor processes, poor correlation across sim, cfd, etc etc will not net you a championship winning car. they might be able to scrape by with a competitive car, but not a championship car.

it forces them to reevaluate and change, which they may have not done if they were midfieldish.

It's also possible that the embarrassment and humiliation of being this poor is breeding a toxic work culture that will damage the company for years to come. It's rarely good to be bad unless your sport has a draft system for young talent, and even then losing habits can be difficult to shake. Theres a lot of pressure on this Hungary update; if it doesn't deliver them to striking distance of the midfield, morale will crater.

[diffuser]

If they were throwing upgrades chasing performance, it would be a concern for everyone, but all the changes made to the car have been to identify and address reliability problems.

There's no reason a team of this caliber with the facilities they have would need 3 or 4 years to deliver a good car.

Also, everyone knows the targets now for the PU. Honda showed in 2018 that they are capable of delivering a competitive PU in a year.

How did you come to that conclusion? They started disastrously in 2015, and it took to around 2020 for them to be comparable to Mercedes.

The trap that the regs put Honda into for 2015 and 2016 is well documented. Go read about it.

[604gtir]

IMO, the catastrophe of it all is probably the best thing to happen. Forces them to make changes for the better, AMR and Honda and how they work together. It just wont be in time before ALO retires sadly, but in 3-4yrs out AMR will be a force imo.

I don't agree.

It's pretty well documented that the chassis poor start was caused by Newey's and Cardile's late arrival/hiring. You can add the disorganized state they were in before Newey's arrival. In regards to Honda's poor start I put that on Honda being unprepared going into the new regs, and AMR for the poor management of the PU integration. So maybe they learned something about PU integration and management.

well you're entitled to your opinion and as am I. New processes, new software, correlation and maturation of everything takes time, its not a flick of a switch. Sure they can be near the front of the midfield within the year, but to win a championship, well would be short of a miracle if they're using jordan age'd process and tools as recent as a few months ago.

i would very much love it if they were instant championship contenders overnight, but i feel this isnt possible.

[3_12_14_16_22_33_81]

I'm keeping expectations low. Look at Williams. James Vowles threw away last year in an effort to focus on the current regulations. He convinced most of us last year with his lengthy reasoning and explanations. Coming from a team that has won multiple championships, who would doubt his plan. Look at them now. They are barely in front of Cadillac.

I really hope this team can produce something special though.

[ispano6]

If they were throwing upgrades chasing performance, it would be a concern for everyone, but all the changes made to the car have been to identify and address reliability problems.

There's no reason a team of this caliber with the facilities they have would need 3 or 4 years to deliver a good car.

Also, everyone knows the targets now for the PU. Honda showed in 2018 that they are capable of delivering a competitive PU in a year.

As Pedro de la Rosa put it, the facilities are now finally in place for the talent to realize their true potential. He put it quite poignantly - that no one other than Newey had the will to change things around where it needed to be. Where others gave up or said it was too big an undertaking, I presume Cowell/Whitmarsh, Newey made it a point to see them through.

And as Orihara-san has mentioned, the step in performance is a big step. Not enough to catch Mercedes and RedBull. But perhaps putting them close to or on par with Ferrari and above Audi. They already know the dyno numbers but need to validate reliability. Stroll already knows how much more power the PU could theoretically provide based on the simulations he mentioned, I am certain the team does. How the package translates from sim to the track is the unknown.

Given that this next PU is Spec2 without a change to the turbo or MGUK, "Spec3" is the one I am most looking forward to as the team working on that spec has personnel from the dream team that worked on the MGUK, turbo and fuel formulation that produced the RA618H-RA620H. While it'll likely be a new Spec1 for 2027, Honda did accelerate their development for Red Bull to bring upgrades sooner. I would not be surprised if they do find a way to use the 2nd ADUO allowance they have.

[diffuser]

IMO, the catastrophe of it all is probably the best thing to happen. Forces them to make changes for the better, AMR and Honda and how they work together. It just wont be in time before ALO retires sadly, but in 3-4yrs out AMR will be a force imo.

I don't agree.

It's pretty well documented that the chassis poor start was caused by Newey's and Cardile's late arrival/hiring. You can add the disorganized state they were in before Newey's arrival. In regards to Honda's poor start I put that on Honda being unprepared going into the new regs, and AMR for the poor management of the PU integration. So maybe they learned something about PU integration and management.

well you're entitled to your opinion and as am I. New processes, new software, correlation and maturation of everything takes time, its not a flick of a switch. Sure they can be near the front of the midfield within the year, but to win a championship, well would be short of a miracle if they're using jordan age'd process and tools as recent as a few months ago.

i would very much love it if they were instant championship contenders overnight, but i feel this isnt possible.

When you bring in a Newey and Cardile. Processes are going to change. So that was already going on...They fired 7-8 people last year.

Also Newey said that he arrived too late and he was sick so they couldn't investigate all the chassis options. Naturally with Cardile being head of factory, he's gonna oversee change in Processes. If he doesn't start till July 2025...

[avada]

If they were throwing upgrades chasing performance, it would be a concern for everyone, but all the changes made to the car have been to identify and address reliability problems.

There's no reason a team of this caliber with the facilities they have would need 3 or 4 years to deliver a good car.

Also, everyone knows the targets now for the PU. Honda showed in 2018 that they are capable of delivering a competitive PU in a year.

How did you come to that conclusion? They started disastrously in 2015, and it took to around 2020 for them to be comparable to Mercedes.

The trap that the regs put Honda into for 2015 and 2016 is well documented. Go read about it.

What trap? They the full 2015 for unlimited spending and testing, while the others were racing and were subject to update quotas. And the partnership was was announced in 2013. And they weren't in F1 so had no V8 engine to maintain and develop. But had info on other manufacturer's performance and some of their technical solutions, like the split turbo.
The way I see it they had the best circumstances. But they spectacularly botched it.

[avada]

I'm keeping expectations low. Look at Williams. James Vowles threw away last year in an effort to focus on the current regulations. He convinced most of us last year with his lengthy reasoning and explanations. Coming from a team that has won multiple championships, who would doubt his plan. Look at them now. They are barely in front of Cadillac.

I really hope this team can produce something special though.

Well the narrative is almost the same. Only now they're waiting for the second spec chassis, rather than next year's.

[diffuser]

How did you come to that conclusion? They started disastrously in 2015, and it took to around 2020 for them to be comparable to Mercedes.

The trap that the regs put Honda into for 2015 and 2016 is well documented. Go read about it.

What trap? They the full 2015 for unlimited spending and testing, while the others were racing and were subject to update quotas. And the partnership was was announced in 2013. And they weren't in F1 so had no V8 engine to maintain and develop. But had info on other manufacturer's performance and some of their technical solutions, like the split turbo.
The way I see it they had the best circumstances. But they spectacularly botched it.

In 2015, they discovered that the ICE's compressor was undersized. They soon realized they couldn't make it any larger because the turbocharger's compressor was located in the middle of the ICE. To increase its size, they would have had to move it out of the middle, but doing so would have required redesigning the cylinder heads, intake, and exhaust. The rules only allowed them to change two of those components. Of course, you can't move the intake ports on a cylinder head without also moving the exhaust ports. They pushed to have the rules changed, but that didn't happen until 2017. Which is when they released the completely redesign PU.

[avada]

In 2015, they discovered that the ICE's compressor was undersized. They soon realized they couldn't make it any larger because the turbocharger's compressor was located in the middle of the ICE. To increase its size, they would have had to move it out of the middle, but doing so would have required redesigning the cylinder heads, intake, and exhaust. The rules only allowed them to change two of those components. Of course, you can't move the intake ports on a cylinder head without also moving the exhaust ports. They pushed to have the rules changed, but that didn't happen until 2017. Which is when they released the completely redesign PU.

If they only found out in 2015 it says a lot about the quality of their development process. None of it good.
I remember being optimistic about Honda. A whole year to themselves, unlimited development and testing. At that time I think they could have even tested on track in a chassis since they weren't a part of the championship yet. (And not secretly like Ferrari)
They failed massively of course.

I wouldn't even call it a trap. More like a pit they dug themselves into.

[SSJ4]

I'll be intrigued to see if Newey continues with his high rake concept after the new upgrade package. If we still run high rake whilst having improved performance.
He's probably found something for next year

[diffuser]

In 2015, they discovered that the ICE's compressor was undersized. They soon realized they couldn't make it any larger because the turbocharger's compressor was located in the middle of the ICE. To increase its size, they would have had to move it out of the middle, but doing so would have required redesigning the cylinder heads, intake, and exhaust. The rules only allowed them to change two of those components. Of course, you can't move the intake ports on a cylinder head without also moving the exhaust ports. They pushed to have the rules changed, but that didn't happen until 2017. Which is when they released the completely redesign PU.

If they only found out in 2015 it says a lot about the quality of their development process. None of it good.
I remember being optimistic about Honda. A whole year to themselves, unlimited development and testing. At that time I think they could have even tested on track in a chassis since they weren't a part of the championship yet. (And not secretly like Ferrari)
They failed massively of course.

I wouldn't even call it a trap. More like a pit they dug themselves into.

You forget they only decided in late 2013 that they were going back into F1 and we're begged to go in for 2015 by McLaren, when Honda wanted to wait another year. McLaren, who's Merc contract had expired in 2014, needed a PU.