understeer not the cars fault?

[autogyro]

Perhaps Ten Tenths & Eleven Tenths are actually the same thing. The only difference being the drivers limitations telling him that he is either at 'ten' or 'eleven'. In both cases the car needs to arrive at the apex balanced and ready for power.

If (in my dreams.... ) I could even take one corner the same way Michael Schumacher might (any car will do!!) - my entire brain will be screaming 'eleven tenths' !!!! Michael's brain doing the same thing is having a quiet chat about being at 'nine tenths' (or less).

I think there is a lot more to Michaels brilliance than just getting through a corner faster than anyone else. Many drivers could match him on this.
Balancing the car is one thing, having a 'balanced' driver is probably a lot more important.

[Giblet]

1. Ten tenths motoring, arrive at the corner entry with a balanced car at the right speed to allow the apex to be clipped and power applied asap.
(F1 with DF and cars way above most drivers ability)

2. Eleven tenths (tell me about it). Arrive at the corner entry to fast for any chance of the above. Throw the car sideways to slip off speed through the corner making sure control is 'sort of' retained and the apex is clipped with the car in full drift. Apply power (very carefuly) as soon as a way out of the corner is confirmed, on the grass probably.

In budget saloons with Capri limited by regs to no brakes after two laps.
Do the same as two above but time it so the car can be 'leaned' on a convenient Rover with working brakes. (hide in paddock after race)

Number 2 is what I am currently practicing to scrub that final second off my time to join the best of the best in lap times on my iRacing sim. I usually top the practice times, until 'an alien' as they are called, shows up, and trumps me by 1 second.

Sliding doesn't seem fast on paper, but you can keep the power up and have that extra bit of speed on exit, and the nose is pointed more at the end of the corner, requiring less correction. Each part of the corner becomes faster. It is technically a drift, but it's more of a controlled oversteer through much of the corner. No smoke, just some tire noise in the cockpit.

Due to the digital nature of racing sims, and samples for tire noise, you can tell a perfect slide when you hear all 4 tires squealing 'in tune', like the beat frequency of two or more guitar strings in a chord that are perfectly tuned.

I talk about like I can do it every time. Understanding and implementation are not one and the same.

[Fil]

I talk about like I can do it every time. Understanding and implementation are not one and the same.

That's why coaches are the players who never could..


as for the OP question. whether understeer is inherent in the car's setup or not, it is the driver's actions that induce it. Always.

if understeer or oversteer is induced, the driver has piloted the vehicle beyond what the car/setup/circuit is capable of delivering.

no matter what the argument against this is, if the driver drove slower, understeer/oversteer would have been avoided.

[autogyro]

I talk about like I can do it every time. Understanding and implementation are not one and the same.

That's why coaches are the players who never could..


as for the OP question. whether understeer is inherent in the car's setup or not, it is the driver's actions that induce it. Always.

if understeer or oversteer is induced, the driver has piloted the vehicle beyond what the car/setup/circuit is capable of delivering.

no matter what the argument against this is, if the driver drove slower, understeer/oversteer would have been avoided.

A car can have built in(set up) oversteer or understeer. I depends on driver input to display these characteristics.
Going slow enough to avoid them is not an option if fast lap times are to be achieved. Driving through them is the fastest way forward.

[Fil]

as for the OP question. whether understeer is inherent in the car's setup or not, it is the driver's actions that induce it. Always.

if understeer or oversteer is induced, the driver has piloted the vehicle beyond what the car/setup/circuit is capable of delivering.

no matter what the argument against this is, if the driver drove slower, understeer/oversteer would have been avoided.

A car can have built in(set up) oversteer or understeer. I depends on driver input to display these characteristics.
Going slow enough to avoid them is not an option if fast lap times are to be achieved. Driving through them is the fastest way forward.

The OP's question never mentioned going fast as a pre-requisite. So your answer digresses.

Irrespective of the car's setup or characterstics, they do no become evident without driver input. It is the driver's actions that they occur.

[alelanza]

no matter what the argument against this is, if the driver drove slower, understeer/oversteer would have been avoided.

True if tyres have reached good temps. Otherwise not necessarily true, grab a go kart with cold tyres, it just won't turn into a corner w/o trail braking, and if you keep on going slow you won't get heat into them, so it must be driven in a way that you'll be able to get heat, and that's usually not achieved by going slower.

[autogyro]

The only time there is no oversteer/understeer, is when the vehicle is on rails.

[domdogger]

No f1 car should be set up for oversteer as you don't get full power on the road and it tears up your tyres.

[Giblet]

No f1 car should be set up for oversteer as you don't get full power on the road and it tears up your tyres.

That's not true at all. The fastest drivers prefer cars that oversteer, such as Michael Schumacher.

[autogyro]

No f1 car should be set up for oversteer as you don't get full power on the road and it tears up your tyres.

That's not true at all. The fastest drivers prefer cars that oversteer, such as Michael Schumacher.

Oversteer is usualy the choice. I think because corner entry feels easier, although this can flatter to decieve.
However, I believe a car that is neutral is best but it has to be set up so that both oversteer and understeer can be provoked by the driver with control fully maintained. Such a set up allows the tyres to be 'nursed' better if there is a need during the race to conserve rubber and there is time for the car to be 'cruised' off the limit.
Tyre wear is as important if not more so as cornering speed.
Of course high DF in F1 cars makes the mechanical side of set up far more difficult to get right.

[Jersey Tom]

Fast drivers prefer oversteer? Not sure I agree with that. In open wheel, loose/oversteer is slow. Don't care who it is. Unless there's some scenario I'm not thinking of...

The more yaw you put on the car, the less downforce you have. I'd think the sideforce gain would be marginal. Exit speed is king, and the more sideways you are coming off the corner the less acceleration you're aiming down the straightaway. I'd want the car to be neutral but planted when you put the throttle down.

In stock car racing.. or anything that's a large blunt body.. there's something to be said for being able to really pitch and rotate the car on entry, especially in tight corners. You don't have much downforce to begin with so you're not losing quite as much.. and there could be a non-trivial pickup in sideforce with yaw. Still, you want the car to be planted on exit.

At some point my career I'd like to work on dirt car (or rally car) vehicle dynamics. At that point you have not only the interesting aero component at huge sideslip angles, but you have the situation where your drive force is probably adding a noticeable contribution to the cornering power of the car. A F&M curve of a tire on dirt would be interesting to see as well.

I wouldn't be surprised in F1 if the better drivers preferred super neutral setups, where the margin for error is thin. That may be quantified as "less understeer" but not quite to the side of "free"

[Lurk]

During V10 era, drivers were using its power and its brutality to help car to turn in slow and medium-speed corner. Looks like a clever usage of oversteer to me.

[autogyro]

During V10 era, drivers were using its power and its brutality to help car to turn in slow and medium-speed corner. Looks like a clever usage of oversteer to me.

I think you will find a lot of that power on turn in was to make use of the 'controlled' differentials on those V10 cars. They still 'planted' power on exit of corner as already mentioned. Traction limiting made it practical to apply controlled power on entry and through apex.
On the loose (rallying) it is useful to have the mass of the car split towards the front and rear to give a pendulum effect. This allows for left foot braking and throwing the car left and then right into a right hand corner, using this effect. Set up then has to make the car controlable in a drift at all times.
Poetry if done right. F1 cars have the mass much closer to the center.

[Giblet]

Schumacher prefers an oversteering car. This is just fact, and always has been, and he has routinely shown to be one of the fastest around.

Not meaning to argue, but look it up.

[Jersey Tom]

Schumacher prefers an oversteering car. This is just fact, and always has been

Uhhh.. says who?