Chinese GP 2010 - Shanghai

[segedunum]

Always attacking the poster. My sig is gonna be HUGE.

My heart is bleeding.

I quoted the rules that someone, whos name is FLC, said.

Yer, that supports what I'm saying. Where is the evidence to back up your fantasy?

The rule about the pit exit line, was never applied to the front, according to these rules you are speaking about.

Jesus H. Christ.............. All of it is about the pit lane entry:

a) The section of track leading to the pit lane shall be referred to as the “pit entry”.
b) During competition access to the pit lane is allowed only through the pit entry.
c) Any driver intending to leave the track or to enter the pit lane should make sure that it is safe to do so.
d) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as such by the Stewards of the Meeting), the crossing, in any direction, of the line separating the pit entry and the track is prohibited.

You're yanking the chain now. Seriously.

[segedunum]

How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?

I'm afraid it is very clear, whatever it happened to be in response to:-

Exactly. If they'd run down the pitlane side by side and then nailed it the exit we'd all be "wow, great racing". Vettel moved across the lane in a big way. And that's Hamilton's fault apparently.

Vettel was entitled to move across the lane because the position was his. He was ahead. You cannot follow another car down the pitlane, pull into the pitbox area and expect another driver to move over for you and let you alongside and then whinge when he is disinclined to do that. That's just nuts, as I said and double-standards when it comes to Hamilton really.

In previous examples that we've seen all drivers have ended up pulling out of their respective pitboxes so that they're virtually together and they have no real choice but to give room to each other. This is the first time we've seen a driver make a slow get away out of his pit box, end up behind and then try and pull alongside in an attempt to overtake, because it can't be for anything else.

[strad]

Hold it..Hold it..Did I miss something? Is there any question that Louie is a jerk?

[andrew]

Hold it..Hold it..Did I miss something? Is there any question that Louie is a jerk?

In my opinion yes, in others no. The jury seems to be out.

[Giblet]

Pit lane begins at the speed limit line, where cars have to slow down to the speed limit. That is referred to as the "pit lane"

The "pit lane", and "pit entry" are two separate entities. That is the whole basis of this problem, as discussed very early on.

You are getting the two terms mixed up in your head.

[segedunum]

Vettel didn't push Hamilton anywhere. He was ahead and so was entitled to put his car anywhere in the pit lane he liked. Why? Well, he was physically able to put his car there so he was entitled to do so. The only one who pushed his car anywhere was Hamilton because he simply wanted to get alongside Vettel, and the only reason for doing that, logically, is to try and pass the car in front.

Have I pointed out enough that Vettel was ahead? Would anyone care to argue that he wasn't, otherwise this 'discussion' is going to have a few people checking into asylums?

[rubbergoat]

Hey Guys,

Here are some graphs from my Driver Consistency Analysis from my blog 'Making Up The Numbers': http://f1numbers.wordpress.com/2010/04/ ... nsistency/








Wow, what a race! F1 certainly isn’t boring when you add water, eh? It was great to see racing all the way through the field – the changeable conditions made for some great strategy calls too…

It was a masterful win by Jenson Button – proving to all the doubters (myself included) that he can indeed hold his own and beat Hamilton in a team that was supposed to bet centred around him. It was amazing to see two very talented drivers finish one-two (a first to have them both on the same podium) and yet run their races in completely different ways – Button coaxing and smoothly driving his car while Hamilton charged and raced his way through the field, keeping Button on his toes until the last corner.

Hamilton was involved in a few incidents with Vettel, including a pit lane exit that was rather close to call, but in the end they both gave as good as they got and only received a telling off after the race for being a bit naughty.

I must admit I like what the stewards are doing this year – they are really letting the drivers race and are showing a lot of common sense in the decisions. There was another weird incident involving the Ferrari drivers racing each other into the pit lane, but when you think about it there’s nothing really wrong with it and it was some good racing.


Cheers,


//RubberGoat
http://f1numbers.wordpress.com/

[Hannah.]

After the first few laps it kind of died down. Yes, it was the best race so far, but it is the best of a bad lot sadly.

Hopefully the European rounds at the older tracks will be better. [-o<

Were you watching the same race as the rest of us...oh wait I know what it was, Hamilton made the majority of the amazing overtaking moves (Vettel and Sutil in one corner ) and was the key to the excitment in the race, and to save yourself having to admit that he's a bloody good racer you've blocked his part in the race off, leaving you purely with the visions of Schumacher being overtaken the second most times, and Button just leading from the front. Am I right or am I right
I think there is very little chance of another race anywhere near that excitment this season - maybe Brazil or Silverstone (with a decent amount of rain) if we're lucky but fingers crossed [-o<
Anyway, I'm now watching the highlights of the race, some of it still amazes me =D>

[andrew]

After the first few laps it kind of died down. Yes, it was the best race so far, but it is the best of a bad lot sadly.

Hopefully the European rounds at the older tracks will be better. [-o<

Were you watching the same race as the rest of us...oh wait I know what it was, Hamilton made the majority of the amazing overtaking moves (Vettel and Sutil in one corner ) and was the key to the excitment in the race, and to save yourself having to admit that he's a bloody good racer you've blocked his part in the race off, leaving you purely with the visions of Schumacher being overtaken the second most times, and Button just leading from the front. Am I right or am I right
I think there is very little chance of another race anywhere near that excitment this season - maybe Brazil or Silverstone (with a decent amount of rain) if we're lucky but fingers crossed [-o<
Anyway, I'm now watching the highlights of the race, some of it still amazes me =D>

Behave you!

Not really no. It was just the usual procession. I'll admit, I watched it with the Brundle / Legard commentary which was up to its usual terrible standard. Maybe that didn't help. Maybe if Legard would it might have been more enjoyable.

Have you seen the thread about Hamilton getting desperate? Have you set up your one yet?

[Just_a_fan]

Vettel was entitled to move across the lane because the position was his.

Moving across the track in a way to crowd another driver off the track is against the rules (and in this case was potentially very dangerous).

He was ahead.

They were running side by side along a straight bit of track...

You cannot follow another car down the pitlane, pull into the pitbox area and expect another driver to move over for you and let you alongside and then whinge when he is disinclined to do that.

Hamilton hasn't moaned about anything has he? Vettel made a comment after the race and suggested that he was worried about tyre damage because of Hamilton's actions. But Vettel moved across in to Hamilton and then Vettel moans about it...

That's just nuts, as I said and double-standards when it comes to Hamilton really.

What double standards? This is a single incident.

In previous examples that we've seen all drivers have ended up pulling out of their respective pitboxes so that they're virtually together and they have no real choice but to give room to each other. This is the first time we've seen a driver make a slow get away out of his pit box, end up behind and then try and pull alongside in an attempt to overtake, because it can't be for anything else.

Er, no. There have been a number of cases of drivers driving side by side down the pit lane. And there is no rule that one can't overtake in the pitlane.

[Shrieker]

Vettel didn't push Hamilton anywhere.

Talk about 'delusion' and 'fantasy' , eh ?

[andrew]

I thought that everyone had already agreed that the Hamilton/Vettel/pitlane hoo-haa was finished. There were faults on both sides and they both got off lightly.

[segedunum]

Pit lane begins at the speed line, where cares have to slow down.

Nope. The pit lane exit isn't denoted by the speed line either. If you have a rule or regulation you can point to (as you have demanded yourself so often) where that is the case and backs up what you say then I'm all ears, and eyes, but you haven't produced one.

Interestingly, the appendix L portion of the code makes reference to the pit lane entry but not much about the exit, although we do know drivers have been penalised for going over white lines on the pit lane exit. Is there a ruling somewhere that covers that one anyone?

The pit lane, and pit entry are separate entities. That is the whole basis of this problem, as discussed very early on.

Nope, I'm afraid they're not, but alas, the only option open to you now is to argue that they are.

You are getting the two terms mixed up in your head.

Nope. You want them to be separate, but from what we've seen there is no evidence that they are. It's a red herring.

You've argued several strawmans and red herrings:

1. That all four of Hamilton's wheels weren't over the white line, therefore it was all OK. There is pictorial evidence that says all four wheels were over the line of the pit lane entry - even though there is no such ruling about 'four wheels'! It's if you drive anywhere outside of the pit area to gain entrance, or exit.

2. It was OK because Hamilton entered the pit lane from an off-track area, so presumably because he wasn't actually on the track it was then OK. We don't seem to have seen or heard of that theory again.

3. Even though you've made previous arguments based on the pit lane entry and the white lines that designate it, you now completely ignore them as being a part of the pit lane at all even though there is no ruling that the pit lane begins and ends at the speed line although pit lane entry (and exit) and the track

4. Finally, obviously if you ignore the pit lane entry area then you have the problem of the pit lane exit. The only option left is to argue that both are somehow different when there is no ruling anywhere that we have seen that says that they are.

[segedunum]

Talk about 'delusion' and 'fantasy' , eh ?

Yes I know. It seems that many people have fantasised that Hamilton got out at the same time as Vettel, and alongside, or perhaps even ahead of him.

Alas, and interestingly, no one wants to actually argue that Vettel wasn't ahead (can you?). Until someone can successfully argue that (good luck) then the discussion over this incident is most firmly over and can't go anywhere.

[Just_a_fan]

Pit lane begins at the speed line, where cares have to slow down.

Nope. The pit lane exit isn't denoted by the speed line either. If you have a rule or regulation you can point to (as you have demanded yourself so often) where that is the case and backs up what you say then I'm all ears, and eyes, but you haven't produced one.

Interestingly, the appendix L portion of the code makes reference to the pit lane entry but not much about the exit, although we do know drivers have been penalised for going over white lines on the pit lane exit. Is there a ruling somewhere that covers that one anyone?

Yes, it's in the App L portion of the code:

Entrance to the pit lane
a) The section of track leading to the pit lane shall be referred to
as the “pit entry”.
b) During competition access to the pit lane is allowed only
through the pit entry.
c) Any driver intending to leave the track or to enter the pit lane
should make sure that it is safe to do so.
d) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as such by the
Stewards of the Meeting), the crossing, in any direction, of the
line separating the pit entry and the track is prohibited.
e) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as such by the
Stewards of the Meeting), any line painted on the track at the
pit exit for the purpose of separating cars leaving the pits from
those on the track must not be crossed by any part of a car
leaving the pits.

Does that help?