Hugely Dissapointed With McLaren

[timbo]

Are you saying all that extra money that 2nd place in WCC gets compared to 3rd is not worth leaving FOTA and running KERS?

Is losing ability to have a vote in F1 (except cases which require unanimous voting) worth it?
And why do you think Newey is not able to master KERS?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Of course KERS advantage had everything to do with McLaren. Why did other teams get rid of their KERs? Because they unlike McLaren couldn't figure out the solution to the weight distro/ballast problem with KERS brought with it.

Merc wouldn't be able to do anything if McLaren wanted to run KERS. If they were so anti-McLaren they would have pulled the engine supply already.

Sure McLaren needs a lot more than KERS. But don't deny that KERS wouldn't be helpful. It could have provided the vital 2 or 3 tenths to catch up RBR in qualy, pass them during starts etc or at least secure a strong 2nd place in WCC just ahead of Ferrari.

Are you saying all that extra money that 2nd place in WCC gets compared to 3rd is not worth leaving FOTA and running KERS?

You speak of KERS as if it was McLarens dominion. IT ISNT.
Please, realise this for your own credibilty on these pages.
It's Zytek technology commisioned at Daimler's request. McLaren's only contribution can be packaging, which was easiest of all the teams because it was the smallest and lightest of all the KERS units last year.

And had Mclaren(with cost issues of its own) maintained KERS in light of Mercedes sale they would have had a higher expense. Reason? Do you think Mercedes will bear the extra cost of KERS to Mclaren after its sold its stake? Please man, not in this era of credit crunchs and cost reductions.

Maybe Mclaren arent that good at the moment because another team is better?
Ever think of that?

[internetf1fan]

Maybe Mclaren arent that good at the moment because another team is better?
Ever think of that?

Erm that's what I am arguing about. The other teams ARE better and McLaren should be doing everything it can within the regulations to close the gap. What do you think I have been debating about all this time? Why do you think I am dissapointed in McLaren? I would have been perfectly happy if they tried their best and were behind like in 2009, but this is 2010, they learned for 2009, they managed to get KERS working as a whole package, and yet they didn't use the knowledge to their full advantage.

If they do lose out 2nd place to Ferrari, they will have no one else to blame but themselves for not taking the full advantage of the regulations. And that's what I am so dissapointed about.

[axle]

they will have no one else to blame but themselves for not taking the full advantage of the regulations. And that's what I am so dissapointed about.

Woooo.../picks toys up.

That's motorsport/competition for you. Just because you're a big team doesn't guarantee you success.

[internetf1fan]

Are you saying all that extra money that 2nd place in WCC gets compared to 3rd is not worth leaving FOTA and running KERS?

Is losing ability to have a vote in F1 (except cases which require unanimous voting) worth it?
And why do you think Newey is not able to master KERS?

1) What has FOTA voted on so far?
2) Are those "agreements" enforcable? If McLaren quits FOTA, and other teams for example agreen to banne diffusersa mong them even though they are still in the official FIA regulations, can FOTA do anything to McLaren running diffusers?
3) I never said Newey won't be able to master KERS. I just said it would put them on the back foot for a time while McLaren can take advantage of it. Plus the fact that Newey cars seem to notoriously be affected by balance issues. See them following other cars, their pace in the rain in China etc. As well as the fact that Newey makes very fragile cars so wouldn't be suprised if RBR has reliability problems initially.

[internetf1fan]

That's motorsport/competition for you. Just because you're a big team doesn't guarantee you success.

When have I ever said that? I said McLaren isn't doing everything in the regulations to be as fast as possible. McLaren isn't using their past knowledge to their fullest extent. I would be perfectly happy if McLaren maximised everything in the regulations but was still slower like in 2009.

[timbo]

1) What has FOTA voted on so far?
2) Are those "agreements" enforcable? If McLaren quits FOTA, and other teams for example agreen to banne diffusersa mong them even though they are still in the official FIA regulations, can FOTA do anything to McLaren running diffusers?

Ever wondered why there are parties in parliament? FOTA can't enofce anything by itself, as there's no such thing as "party vote", but teams within FOTA can communicate and reach common agreement. This of course would not work in cases when unanimity needed. But the changes for future regulations (more than a year from present) require only majority voting.

3) I never said Newey won't be able to master KERS. I just said it would put them on the back foot for a time while McLaren can take advantage of it. Plus the fact that Newey cars seem to notoriously be affected by balance issues. See them following other cars, their pace in the rain in China etc. As well as the fact that Newey makes very fragile cars so wouldn't be suprised if RBR has reliability problems initially.

There's no reason why it would put them on back foot. If anything, Newey has the best instinct on what would be the biggest performance differentiator. Last year he knew KERS would not make them much faster, so he went without it.

[WhiteBlue]

White blue I agree with you most the time, but Porsche cannot hope to have the same cachet as a McLaren.

Unless the high level sports car market is an exception you have to meet some criteria for your product to be successfull. I will name them in the order of relevance.

specification (power/weigt, fuel use, top speed)
exterior and interior design and build quality
brand image
price
handling
reliability

I would expect McLaren to deliver on all aspects of the car except perhaps they may screw up on price. If you have the chance to buy a Porsche with Williams flywheel at less money which would outperform the McLaren and runs the first 25 miles on electric motors only, I expect some people to have second thoughts. You can buy the Porsche instead of the Prius and tell them it is so nice for shopping.

I'm not saying that is what will happen. I'm only pointing out the business risks for McAuto. The first car looks like a pretty competent design but it isn't an automatic ticket to make money. The market has a harsh reality and you cannot live from brand image alone. You have to deliver all the goods all the time against all the competitors, not only Ferrari.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

White blue I agree with you most the time, but Porsche cannot hope to have the same cachet as a McLaren.

Unless the high level sports car market is an exception you have to meet some criteria for your product to be successfull. I will name them in the order of relevance.

specification (power/weigt, fuel use, top speed)
exterior and interior design and build quality
brand image
price
handling
reliability

I would expect McLaren to deliver on all aspects of the car except perhaps they may screw up on price. If you have the chance to buy a Porsche with Williams flywheel at less money which would outperform the McLaren and runs the first 25 miles on electric motors only I expect some people to have second thoughts. You can buy the Porsche instead of the Prius and tell them it is so nice for shopping.

WB

I have seen this Porsche in concept form only. Wait until its near production ready before we get to any sort of performance figures or cost price.
The fact is the 458 italia and Mercedes SLS offer similar performance with dramatically different concepts to the Mclaren 12C.

This is McLarens hunting ground, and I think by launching against a recently ailing Ferrari(figures down 10%) to be a mistake, I think Mercedes will be the ones laughing at the end of all 3 cars production cycles.
I wont go into it but their costs are the lowest of all 3 and they have Schumacher modeling it( good for ze german and american and middle eastern markets).

Masterstroke anyone?

[Pup]

Were people that rational with their car buying, not a single Ferrari would be sold. Or plenty of other cars for that matter.

The 12c looks to have the performance of a Porche, with the cache of a Ferrari. Not a bad combination, IMO. Actually, it will likely outperform a Porche at least in the handling department.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Were people that rational with their car buying, not a single Ferrari would be sold. Or plenty of other cars for that matter.

Er, McLaren F1 pup?
I dont think the act of buying a supercar to be entirely rational.....

[internetf1fan]

1) What has FOTA voted on so far?
2) Are those "agreements" enforcable? If McLaren quits FOTA, and other teams for example agreen to banne diffusersa mong them even though they are still in the official FIA regulations, can FOTA do anything to McLaren running diffusers?

Ever wondered why there are parties in parliament? FOTA can't enofce anything by itself, as there's no such thing as "party vote", but teams within FOTA can communicate and reach common agreement. This of course would not work in cases when unanimity needed. But the changes for future regulations (more than a year from present) require only majority voting.

You didn't answer my question. What can FOTA do to enforce the "gentlemen's agreements" if the so called banned device is still allowed under the regulations. FOTA don't seem to be voting on regulations, but they are voting on "gentlemen's agreements". Your analogy to the parliament doesn't hold at all.

[Pup]

If you don't like the fact that McLaren honor these "gentleman's agreements", then might I suggest that you've simply picked the wrong team to support? You seem more of a Ferrari guy to me.

[segedunum]

Were people that rational with their car buying, not a single Ferrari would be sold. Or plenty of other cars for that matter.

As dicussed elsewhere, it's a finite and limited market that is already saturated when you look at the difficulties of other manufacturers. You can't rationalise entering an already saturated market by claiming that the market is not rational, so it's OK. That's a bit.....irrational.

The 12c looks to have the performance of a Porche, with the cache of a Ferrari. Not a bad combination, IMO. Actually, it will likely outperform a Porche at least in the handling department.

It's going to need a hell of a lot more than handling to usurp established brands who have been around for decades and who are finding the market tough going today as it is.

[timbo]

You didn't answer my question. What can FOTA do to enforce the "gentlemen's agreements" if the so called banned device is still allowed under the regulations. FOTA don't seem to be voting on regulations, but they are voting on "gentlemen's agreements". Your analogy to the parliament doesn't hold at all.

Simple, you break an agreement, you're no longer a part of FOTA.
Do you see party voting as a whole? Usually no. It's individuals who vote. But when they are members of a party they vote the same most of the time.