Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

[ISLAMATRON]

Rosberg had a bad set of tires or something alongthose lines were said over the radio, nonetheless MS was holding him up and trailing JB by over 30 seconds at some point.... not really anything great from MS today, other than a decent start to pass JB who was on the dirty line and quickly passed him.

Webber got rammed by his teammate and came in for a nose change and still came out with 10 seconds over MS... no real glory for MS today.

[myurr]

Bullshit! Horner said it clearly. Mark squeezed. Vettel did not hit Mark by intention. The guys both did not give each other enough space, he said.

Right. He rightly squeezed, totally legit and within his range of options to win the race. He left Vettel room, and Vettel was on the outside. Vettel was trying a low percentage pass on his teammate.
What happened in the moment of the pass does not cancel that Vettel put the two of them in that position. Him too close on the outside, and Webber being put in a position to defend his position.

One lap later Vettel takes the outside on turn 11 and has nearly passed Webber onto the approach of turn 12. Webber declined to move right to the normal racing line, while Vettel tried to and hit Webber with his right rear wheel. Vettel's race was immediately ended while Webber continued for one more lap before taking on a new front wing and rejoining the race in 3rd place, 6 seconds ahead of Schumacher.
I think that's a fair assessment. It did seem pretty bad sportsmanship of Webber to go straight where he was "supposed" to go right to get into position for a left turn, more so to do it on his team mate.

There's no obligation for a driver to follow any particular line through any corner - they are free to take whatever line they like. Hence taking the inside line when defending, etc.

Vettel moved over on Webber, simple as. He has history on this, Hamilton also complained that Vettel had done the same thing to him earlier when he had managed to get alongside and he has done this in many other races. This time he lost out big time and cost both his team and himself a lot of points, and cost Webber the win.

[Giblet]

I'd love to be in Rosberg's shoes. Handily leading my legendary teammate in points and by no means getting schooled by him.

[Roger the knife]

Let's not forget about Petrov, he drove a barnstormetr of race today, handled the pressure from Alonso very well, and was unlucky with the puncture, expect to see more good stuff here

[segedunum]

Webber was thinking ahead which is why you're wrong about what he should have done. By keeping Vettel on the inside like that he increased his chances of getting a better line around the outside of that corner ready for the inside of the next corner.

No, he wasn't. Sebastian was already on the inside there. Holding his line did no good whatsoever because he had lost the position, and he needed to be thinking about being in the right optimal line for braking into the next corner where he would have retaken Vettel into the corner after that. He should have already been thinking about the outside line.

It's the sort of thinking Webber can't do and you need to have raced to fully understand it.

He left Vettel room on the track, Vettel did not have to turn right into Webber's car that was entirely his choice and in my view it was his mistake.

He did have to turn right slightly because he needed some room for braking for the corner, but Vettel would already have thought he was past there. More to the point, Webber should have known that's what was going to happen. Jenson and Lewis understand that, thakfully, which is the only reason why Mark Webber hasn't won!

He should not have tried to push Webber wide he should have just held the inside line and pushed wide on the corner exit.

He needed the line for braking. That wasn't possible.

However, the real problem here is why on Earth Mark was so much slower that Vettel had no option but to try and pass Mark. That's the real cause. I'm also intrigued about how the same thing almost happened with Jenson and Lewis and why Lewis was all matter of fact about it.

Weird race.

[ringo]

Heiki had a nice race as well.
Showing his is not slow at all. His speed is there and i think he is one of the fastest on the grid. Some time in the lotus should raise his stock and improve his racing.

[ISLAMATRON]

There's no obligation for a driver to follow any particular line through any corner - they are free to take whatever line they like. Hence taking the inside line when defending, etc.

Vettel moved over on Webber, simple as. He has history on this, Hamilton also complained that Vettel had done the same thing to him earlier when he had managed to get alongside and he has done this in many other races. This time he lost out big time and cost both his team and himself a lot of points, and cost Webber the win.

I can not agree more, Webber(for once) actually did what he was supposed to... He chose a line(before Vettel made a move) and he stuck to it. And contrary to what many people here say he was thinking about the next corner. Keeping his line he was forcing SV to brake on the dirty line thus giving himself the chance to repass on the outside if SV underbraked or causing SV to outbrake himself going into the hardest braking point on the track.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Rosberg seems to be pretty quiet now.

They took the car and adapted it to Michael. They probably told Rosberg to 'shut up and drive'. I sure wouldn't wanna be in Nico's shoes

Oh dear, the Troll is at it again!

Stick to 2 wheels sonny jim

[Mysticf1]

He did have to turn right slightly because he needed some room for braking for the corner, but Vettel would already have thought he was past there. More to the point, Webber should have known that's what was going to happen. Jenson and Lewis understand that, thakfully, which is the only reason why Mark Webber hasn't won!

This is not Webbers problem...if there was no room for Vettel to brake for the next corner he should not have made the move!!!!

However, the real problem here is why on Earth Mark was so much slower that Vettel had no option but to try and pass Mark. That's the real cause. I'm also intrigued about how the same thing almost happened with Jenson and Lewis and why Lewis was all matter of fact about it.

Weird race.

I'm very worried about what is going on inside redbull now...are they giving Webber a fair go at the WC or not...

[RacingManiac]

I think Webber probably was maybe morally the victim, but practically he was also partially to blame. Yes he had no obligation to move, but being team mates and looking at bigger picture by not throwing the race away altogether, he probably could have yielded a bit and do what Lewis did and race for another corner. Vettel at that point can't really see Webber and it was his fault to try to return to the line without knowing whats back there, but Webber could probably be the bigger man there and yielded a bit to not be a victim of the ensuing crash....

[ringo]

Remeber mark said his long stint pace was not so good during practice, and he would have to find a way to deal with it during the race.

I was not surprised Vettel came down on him. What surprised me is the manner in which Vettel tried to pass.

Vettel was putting in some fastest laps, showing he meant business. Horner must have convinced him that he would beat webber that day.

Redbull are now second in the constructors, but Webber has nice cushion from his teammate and still has a good gap to the Mclaren who aren't strong enough as yet to challenge him head to head.
Webber will relish this 15 point gap, and just has to make sure he sticks to Vettel through the season, and not allow him to beat him in a 1,2 more than twice.

[ringo]

I think Webber probably was maybe morally the victim, but practically he was also partially to blame. Yes he had no obligation to move, but being team mates and looking at bigger picture by not throwing the race away altogether, he probably could have yielded a bit and do what Lewis did and race for another corner. Vettel at that point can't really see Webber and it was his fault to try to return to the line without knowing whats back there, but Webber could probably be the bigger man there and yielded a bit to not be a victim of the ensuing crash....

Webber was the bigger man there, he was not stopping vettel from going straight on. All webber was thining about is doing an "X" at the bottom of the hair pin. Vettel's move was idiotic.
The big picture was that Vettel did not want Webber to have 2 more wins than him. Vettel wanted to nip it in the bud and prevent Webber from climbing up in the standings to a point where redbull declare him their WDC challenger.

[myurr]

No, he wasn't. Sebastian was already on the inside there. Holding his line did no good whatsoever because he had lost the position, and he needed to be thinking about being in the right optimal line for braking into the next corner where he would have retaken Vettel into the corner after that. He should have already been thinking about the outside line.

It's the sort of thinking Webber can't do and you need to have raced to fully understand it.

He did have to turn right slightly because he needed some room for braking for the corner, but Vettel would already have thought he was past there. More to the point, Webber should have known that's what was going to happen. Jenson and Lewis understand that, thakfully, which is the only reason why Mark Webber hasn't won!

He needed the line for braking. That wasn't possible.

However, the real problem here is why on Earth Mark was so much slower that Vettel had no option but to try and pass Mark. That's the real cause. I'm also intrigued about how the same thing almost happened with Jenson and Lewis and why Lewis was all matter of fact about it.

Weird race.

Whilst I agree that it's interesting why Vettel was suddenly so much quicker - and on the F1 Forum on BBC they were discussing Webber himself telling journalists to dig into this! - I disagree with everything else in your post.

Webber had no obligation to roll over and simply let Vettel past. By holding the line he did he would have forced Vettel to take a shallow line into the corner giving him much more chance to either get alongside or duck behind Vettel as he tried to push wide on the exit. We see other drivers manage to pull this off, and we also see previous examples of Vettel making sudden moves pushing other drivers. There was another example where Vettel did exactly that as Hamilton tried to pass him earlier in the race.

This time it all went wrong for him and has cost him, his team, and Webber a whole load of points. Strange how all the drivers and commentators seem to agree.

[segedunum]

The fact that people are trying to say that Mark had no part in this tells me they are people who have never raced in their life. When you are slower and you are using your car to defend you have to be mindful of the consequences and be a bit smarter to keep your position. Part of that is knowing when you have lost the position. Mark has history with these kinds of accidents whether people think they are his fault or not.

Vettel was also far too over aggressive in defending gainst Hamilton early on, which ultimately lost him the place. Had he been calmer I think he could have easily defended without doing any of that. He went far too wide to try and be faster and put his car in some risque positions, so he's not the blue-eyed golden boy of racing some have suggested. He was almost Mark Webber like in some respects.

However, I'm intrigued to know why Mark was so much slower than Vettel and I can't believe Mark got that much out of shape. Vettel had no option but to try and pass him. If, as has been suggested, Red Bull allowed Vettel to turn his engine up then that was a ludicrous thing to do in view of the fact that the McLarens were a few tenths behind and I have every sympathy with Mark, even if I don't rate his driving at times.

[segedunum]

Webber had no obligation to roll over and simply let Vettel past.

Then it's his decision what happens next, because he's the slower car and he is losing the position into the next corner whatever he does. Webber is not defending anything by being where he is.

By holding the line he did he would have forced Vettel to take a shallow line into the corner giving him much more chance to either get alongside or duck behind Vettel as he tried to push wide on the exit.

No. Vettel was already compromised on the inside and Mark should have moved further to the outside not only to avoid an accident but to get the optimal braking and line into the corner to retake the place. Mark just cannot think like that.

Strange how all the drivers and commentators seem to agree.

There's still a lot of debate about it. As always, it's never that simple because they are looking at one part of the incident and not the whole and I'm afraid that won't help you.