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I am not quite sure about that. Look in Hungary 2006 when Alonso blew everyone way, including Shummy, in the rain. He had so much more speed.... Would you put this down to Alosno's superior abilities?speedsense wrote:If one wants to compare driver talent in F1, one can always point to some advantage that the car posseses as the reason.
The "only" way to define which driver is more talented is to put them in equal cars and let them go at it. Which is never going to happen.
However, the great equalizer and judgement of driving ability WITHOUT any hp, handling, f-duct, kers having an effective advantage, would be the rain.
How does Hamilton career stats compare to other driver's rain abilities?
IMHO- he wins this contest, hands down...
Your argument falls a little flat, due to te circumstances of Buttons wins! Fate, luck,safety car or whatever you want to call it, was the reason . But racing car for car, in equal conditions, Button was not as fast as Hamilton. By the way, it takes a tosser to know a tosserJohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Button beat Hamilton twice this year in the rain, in the same car!
How does that go with the logic you are applying there? My whole debate does not centre around Hamilton being a bad driver or even an average driver. He is bloody good! Only a tosser would deny that.
My point here is people should stop and think laterally for a second and use their noggins(brain) to see why things happen the way they do.
Its not by accident that Button is doing very well against Hamilton in the same car. Yet 2 years ago, people would have belittled you for suggesting he could push Lewis and actually outperform him in conditions you would think be most suited to Lewis.
But here we are in 2010, and BANG its happening alright.
Who would have thought Massa would not be outdone by Alonso? Only an ardent fan, cos I had Alonso destroying Massa.
So I look back and I thank Lewis for entertaining me by making some very good manouvres. But he did them with huge help from 2 HUGE factors. KERS and F-duct.
Both were/are the best in his car then anyone else's apart from his team mate. And Like I said button aint doing too bad eh?
Michilen's inters were far superior to BS's, MS didnt stand a chance... everybody is on the same tires now... much different comparison.vall wrote:I am not quite sure about that. Look in Hungary 2006 when Alonso blew everyone way, including Shummy, in the rain. He had so much more speed.... Would you put this down to Alosno's superior abilities?speedsense wrote:If one wants to compare driver talent in F1, one can always point to some advantage that the car posseses as the reason.
The "only" way to define which driver is more talented is to put them in equal cars and let them go at it. Which is never going to happen.
However, the great equalizer and judgement of driving ability WITHOUT any hp, handling, f-duct, kers having an effective advantage, would be the rain.
How does Hamilton career stats compare to other driver's rain abilities?
IMHO- he wins this contest, hands down...
By this logic Heikki should have made as many passes as Lewis last year and Jenson as many passes this year? I'm not sure the evidence backs this up. Lewis has made more passes this year and last year, versus his team mate, and only 4 points seperate them this year.JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Button beat Hamilton twice this year in the rain, in the same car!
So I look back and I thank Lewis for entertaining me by making some very good manouvres. But he did them with huge help from 2 HUGE factors. KERS and F-duct.
Both were/are the best in his car then anyone else's apart from his team mate. And Like I said button aint doing too bad eh?
But it was not only Alonso on Michilens, no? Where were the others? What about Germany 2007? Alonso was cruising behind Massa in the dry and could not get closer. Once the rain started Alonso overtook Massa very easily. They were both on BSs. I still think that even in the rain it is still 70%.ISLAMATRON wrote:Michilen's inters were far superior to BS's, MS didnt stand a chance... everybody is on the same tires now... much different comparison.vall wrote: I am not quite sure about that. Look in Hungary 2006 when Alonso blew everyone way, including Shummy, in the rain. He had so much more speed.... Would you put this down to Alosno's superior abilities?
The rain does equalise the car very much(as long as everyone is on a dry or a wet set-up)... and in the rain Hamilton is clearly head and shoulders above the field.
The evidence would suggest that Heikki is not as good a driver(plausible) or wasnt getting the same treatment(who knows).Shaddock wrote:By this logic Heikki should have made as many passes as Lewis last year and Jenson as many passes this year? I'm not sure the evidence backs this up. Lewis has made more passes this year and last year, versus his team mate, and only 4 points seperate them this year.JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Button beat Hamilton twice this year in the rain, in the same car!
So I look back and I thank Lewis for entertaining me by making some very good manouvres. But he did them with huge help from 2 HUGE factors. KERS and F-duct.
Both were/are the best in his car then anyone else's apart from his team mate. And Like I said button aint doing too bad eh?
ISLAMATRON wrote:I thought it is very apparent that Alonso is a much better rain driver than Massa...
I think so too. At the time, some experts made the point that McL had much wider good performance window than Ferrari. So, LH and Alonso could do well in very different conditions while the Ferrari drivers struggled. It is also true that McL 2008 was much better in the rain than Ferrari. The had two consequences: 1) LH got the reputation for very good rain driver; 2) had critical role for the WDC. 2008 we had too many wet races, which LH won with the better McL.ISLAMATRON wrote:but many also claim that the 2007 McL was much better in the rain than the 2007 Ferrari.
may be even moreISLAMATRON wrote:so you are claiming that in the rain the car accounts for 70% of the difference between drivers?
that's of course very hard to quantify, but IMO 70% is a fair. Of course drivers in the same car could perform differently. MS in a Ferrari built for his style, McL 2008+ for LH, etc. and in general a car may suit giver driver better, etc.
Well that could be based on how they exit the last turn. Hamilton runs very close to his qualifying pace in the race for a good amount of time. Button's qualifying pace may be a bit to on edge for him to use constantly in the race, if at all.timbo wrote:Interesting thing, in qualifying both Button and Hamilton had same maximum speed. In race, top speed for Hamilton was the same as in Qualifying, while Button was 6-7 kph slower when he was on Saturday.