Strange going-ons at Red Bull

[mcdenife]

You are distorting my motifs there. Supporting a driver of the same nationality isn't nationalistic. I don't like this kind of accusations. Please remain fair in the discussion!

Where is the accusation? You said yourself you support Vettel because he is of the same nationality as you. If that is not being nationalistic, what is? Reread my post and dont change the debate. There is nothing wrong with wanting your countryman to win, my comment was not about that.

Obviously I'm not saying that. It is your rhetoric trick putting such words in my mouth. It would be rather foolish to believe that a team makes a decision on Saturday who should win a race based on qualifying speed.

But you keep going on about Vettel being faster because he was faster on saturday. i cant see what that has to do with the price of milk.

[Richard]

Whiteblue maybe your nom de plume is Richard leeds as you did on GP.com with other user names - that would make sense

Sorry to disappoint, but that is not the case.

Nor am I a WB "follower". I am objecting to the personal abuse posted in the last few pages.

[WhiteBlue]

If not even close to the braking zone, there was even less need for Vettel to move over and plenty of time for him to pass Webber COMPLETELY before moving onto the racing line.

Vettel partially passed Webber with the momentum from the slipstream but that was deteriorating when he got ahead. My assumption would be that Vettel may not have had enough straight left to get completely ahead and get back on the racing line. So Webber should have drifted right with him to give both of them enough grip to go through the corner side by side as the McLaren divers demonstrated.

what would have happened if both redbulls hand not changed positon, hamilton would have picked them both off? Webber showed he could defend against hamilton in the first stint...what changed? Wasnt vettel up to the same task?

Yes, I see a real chance that Hamilton would had passed them both. With the current rules the end game of the race only comes in the last ten laps when the state of the tyres and the fuel play a crucial role. Both Hamilton and Vettel were waiting for an opportunity conserving their cars in the early laps of the second stint. Hamilton is very good at passing. I respect him for this skill and Red Bull should have rightfully been worried about the same scenario.

[Mysticf1]

Vettel partially passed Webber with the momentum from the slipstream but that was deteriorating when he got ahead. My assumption would be that Vettel may not have had enough straight left to get completely ahead and get back on the racing line. So Webber should have drifted right with him to give both of them enough grip to go through the corner side by side as the McLaren divers demonstrated.

once again that is Vettel problem if he could not complete the pass, its is absolutely no reason to move over and cause a collision.

[WhiteBlue]

Where is the accusation? You said yourself you support Vettel because he is of the same nationality as you. If that is not being nationalist, what is? Reread my post and dont change the debate. There is nothing wrong with wanting your countryman to win, my comment was not about that.

You called me nationalistic. I reject that. I simply support a country man. I support other drivers as well. If I claimed superiority for the German nation and the right for German drivers to win races due to their nationality I would accept blame for being nationalistic. I'm not doing that and you don't have a right to accuse me of being nationalistic.

[WhiteBlue]

Vettel partially passed Webber with the momentum from the slipstream but that was deteriorating when he got ahead. My assumption would be that Vettel may not have had enough straight left to get completely ahead and get back on the racing line. So Webber should have drifted right with him to give both of them enough grip to go through the corner side by side as the McLaren divers demonstrated.

once again that is Vettel problem if he could not complete the pass, its is absolutely no reason to move over and cause a collision.

I respect your opinion but reserve the right to keep mine. We should agree to disagree on that point.

[Mysticf1]

Thats fair enough, we can't all agree...

[Fil]

Vettel partially passed Webber with the momentum from the slipstream but that was deteriorating when he got ahead. My assumption would be that Vettel may not have had enough straight left to get completely ahead and get back on the racing line. So Webber should have drifted right with him to give both of them enough grip to go through the corner side by side as the McLaren divers demonstrated.

Just to clarify WB, you believe Mark should have moved over because he is a teammate, correct?


Were that Hamilton in Seb's position, in your view, Mark would have had every right to maintain his line?

[raymondu999]

I think people are looking at it from 2 points of view... As driver vs driver, IMO Webber had every right to do what he did. Not saying it was the smartest thing to do, but that's irrelevant-it was his right. If you're looking at it from a team perspective, I don't think he was especially right in squeezing a teammate so much. Squeeze yes, but not that much. Maybe leave him 2 car widths or so?

As for Vettel, it was clearly either plain stupidity or misjudgment of where he was relative to Webber, or he just plain thought Webber would've moved.

Please do note that this is my personal opinion - one I am not trying to impose on anyone.

Btw, is it just me, or does it almost seem like Alonso-Hamilton 2007? Ciaron (if the timing of the video was correct) said to use the overtake button when Vettel was alongside, or creeping up to be alongside. It seems almost as if Ciaron and Webber are fighting the team from within, almost, no?

[WhiteBlue]

Vettel partially passed Webber with the momentum from the slipstream but that was deteriorating when he got ahead. My assumption would be that Vettel may not have had enough straight left to get completely ahead and get back on the racing line. So Webber should have drifted right with him to give both of them enough grip to go through the corner side by side as the McLaren divers demonstrated.

Just to clarify WB, you believe Mark should have moved over because he is a teammate, correct?


Were that Hamilton in Seb's position, in your view, Mark would have had every right to maintain his line?

Exactly. Considering Red Bulls RoE you have to act differently against a team mate than a driver from a rival team.

[xpensive]

What you trying to prove WB, everything you post, from Schumacher to windpower, breathes of nationalistic sentiments.

That's ok with me, but please don't deny it.

[mcdenife]

If you quote the merriam webster your quotation is inaccurate.

Merriam Webster wrote:1 : loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups



I would accept the webster definition and in particular reject your claim by refusing to be exalting one nation above all others.

Please refer to the soccer world cup thread for evidence. I have expressed my sympathy for an underdog or the US team to win the tournament.

I suggest we close this off topic discussion and you stop calling me nationalistic.

Well I did not quote websters and the fact I didnt is your answer. Regardless, either your grasp of english is not as good as you think or you are nitpicking because "devotion to the interests of one country over those of others" and Exalting the interest of one country over those of others mean exactly the same thing. As I said earlier neither imply to the detriment or a superiority over others, again reread my comments, dont muddy the waters. Thats not my meaning, you just chose to take that.

[bcoxa]

@Mods: could you move some of this to a new thread, possibly titled ‘White Blue Verses’.

It’s getting a little distracting trying to read this around the Red Bull nonsense.

[Ciro Pabón]

Please, guys... It's not enough to second guess the drivers and the team from the mighty position your intimate knowledge of the accident puts you into?

Verily, verily, I say unto you: you can second guess other members opinion and life story by PM. There you can even write poetry, bcoxa (btw, welcome to the forum).

If we can give someone the "moron of the year award" I think we have a multiple tie here, and I'm not talking only about Vettel and Webber.

However, Vettel and Webber have shown us the wonderful results and excellent feelings you get from fighting in public (they, at 300 kph; you, at 30 words per minute).

[Mysticf1]

But after the Turkish Grand Prix Red Bull adviser Helmut Marko, a close confidant of the drinks company's boss Dietrich Mateschitz, laid the blame squarely with Webber.

And Horner also hinted strongly that he felt Webber was responsible for the accident for not giving his team-mate enough room.

Horner now says the team were wrong.

"There were a few opinions that were voiced without all the facts available. Emotions are running high, one or two comments were made without all the facts to hand.

"In the cold light of day it was a racing accident, nothing more, nothing less. It was wrong to blame either driver.

But asked about reports that he had told Webber's race engineer to order the Australian to let Vettel past, Horner said: "I don't think I actually said 'move'.

"I don't talk directly to the drivers until after the race. Mark's engineer had no instruction to tell Mark to move out of the way - 100% clear."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... um=twitter

The story changes once again...