Strange going-ons at Red Bull

[Richard]

"There were a few opinions that were voiced without all the facts available. Emotions are running high, one or two comments were made without all the facts to hand.

"In the cold light of day it was a racing accident, nothing more, nothing less. It was wrong to blame either driver.

Now that sounds realistic and is probably the best outcome. It was a cock up, don't do it again.

Hopefully Horner has finally taken a leaf out of Whitmarsh's book or pragmatism, and ditched the Ron Dennis book of paranoia.

[WhiteBlue]

But asked about reports that he had told Webber's race engineer to order the Australian to let Vettel past, Horner said: "I don't think I actually said 'move'.

"I don't talk directly to the drivers until after the race. Mark's engineer had no instruction to tell Mark to move out of the way - 100% clear."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... um=twitter

The story changes once again...

Actually it isn't a change in story regarding the crucial point. The team order was supposed to say that Webber should not fight Vettel. It was never reported that the order was about moving out of the way. That is semantics of course but all credibility of Horner has long evaporated.

There were a few opinions that were voiced without all the facts available. Emotions are running high, one or two comments were made without all the facts to hand. In the cold light of day it was a racing accident, nothing more, nothing less. It was wrong to blame either driver.

Now that sounds realistic and is probably the best outcome. It was a cock up, don't do it again.

Agree, they cocked that team oder up and the drivers had an accident because they were acting on different instructions.

[mcdenife]

Actually it isn't a change in story regarding the crucial point. The team order was supposed to say that Webber should not fight Vettel.

What team order? Didnt Horner just clarify there was no instruction to move out of the way, contrary to what Marko said in the immediate aftermath of the race and which you so happily seized on as the gospel truth which also was the basis of your entire premise yesterday. It was questioned yesterday that there could not have been such an instruction else why would Marks engineer be telling him to use the boost button to defend?

[WhiteBlue]

mcdenife, big LOL. Nice try at mincing words, which appears to be your specialty. Sorry for dissappointing you, I'm not going for the bait. The relevant quotes are all in this thread. Everybody can read them and make up their mind.

Horners latest comments on team order denies something that was never reported, so basically it is a NULL statement. This is the first published written statement by Marko on the issue including the source and the translation.

Der Renningenieur hat den Auftrag bekommen, ihm zu erklären, was los ist. Also dass Vettel nicht ihn attackiert, sondern dieses Tempo gehen muss, damit er nicht von Hamilton überholt wird.

Webber sollte sich nicht gegen den schnelleren Vettel wehren, sondern sein Auto schonen, um dann die Attacken von Hamilton abwehren zu können. Warum (Webber nicht informiert wurde), ist bis heute nicht ganz klar. Dieser Ingenieur hatte einfach einen Blackout, er hat nicht richtig reagiert.

The race engineer (Pilbeam) received the order to explain to him (Webber) what was going on. To explain that Vettel was not attacking him but needed to go faster to avoid being passed by Hamilton.

Webber was supposed not to fight the faster Vettel but save his car to fight Hamilton. It is still not entirely clear today why (Webber wasn't informed). This engineer simply had a black out, he did not do the right thing.

Additional Edit:

"In the situation Sebastian was in, he had no other choice than to act the way he did, ” said Marko on F1.com. “We informed Mark about the situation and it is for the driver to decide. The fact is that if Sebastian hadn’t passed he would have been overtaken by Hamilton. Unfortunately, Mark was not told about the situation accurately by his race engineer.”

This English language source confirms that the "team order" was indeed given but not relayed by Pilbeam.

[Fil]

Just to clarify WB, you believe Mark should have moved over because he is a teammate, correct?

Were that Hamilton in Seb's position, in your view, Mark would have had every right to maintain his line?

Exactly. Considering Red Bulls RoE you have to act differently against a team mate than a driver from a rival team.

Thanks for the simple response.

All teams expect their teammates to be more respectful to eachother than other drivers.

I'm sure no one will argue with that. [-o<

[mcdenife]

In the interview Horner said:
"At no point in time was Mark told to slow down or let Sebastian pass, or vice versa," and:
"Mark's engineer had no instruction to tell Mark to move out of the way - 100% clear."

I think this is borne out by Marks engineer telling him to use the boost button to defend against Vettel, his team mate by the way, against your so called "special ROE" and contrary/contradictory to what Markos claims the instructions were.

Even assuming this did happen, Vettel was still given ample room to pass but stupidly chose to try to bully his team mate on the track.

An aside: An instruction to not fight is an instruction to get out of the way.

Another aside:

Wb wrote:
Nice try at mincing words, which appears to be your specialty.

Not sure what that means but you seem to be the first to resort to insults (subtle I grant you, not that it matters but mods, pls take note) but cannot take it when directed back at you in full and in response. If its unintended then you really need to review how you use the english language.

[WhiteBlue]

An instruction to not fight is an instruction to get out of the way.

Not to fight means not to defend ones position for the defending driver in my view. Webber clearly did fight for his position against Vettel. He made a defensive move to the left before Vettel went for that side. He then defended his position by denying Vettel who was partially ahead the racing line. Those were all proper defensive fighting moves against a competitor. Against a team mate - whom he wasn't supposed to fight - the moves were not appropriate.

I'm not blaming Webber here. He was fighting because he wasn't told the team order.

Another aside:

Nice try at mincing words, which appears to be your specialty.

Not sure what that means but you seem to be the first to resort to insults (subtle I grant you, not that it matters but mods, pls take note) but cannot take it when directed back at you in full and in response.

I suggest we sort this out by PM, if you like. Same as the mess re nationalism. It doesn't belong here.

[marcush.]

I ´d think a team intern battle should be even cleaner then fighting a normal opponent..
So driving into one another is a definite no go.Ithink vettels move was more a reaction of making contact than a deliberate move.Simply they did not show a lot of respect for each other and paid dearly for it.

[Robbobnob]

It seems to me by the tone of Webber this weekend he is extremely dissatisfied with the team, how do you think this will play out for the rest of the season? His conversation with Horner at the End of the race "well done mark brilliant drive, something for you to smile about" -CH "not bad for a number 2 driver" - MW

A couple of questions come to mind, if he truly believes himself to be a number 2 driver will his 2011 contract come to fruition?

Will we see a 2007 Hamilton Alonso type fallout?

sidenote, some impressive overtakes by Vettel

[wesley123]

I think it will end that way, it is clear they do not like each other and both are not happy at all wityh how it goes. Also Hroner stated that mclaren will get same problems with their drivers, wich simply tells me there is alot more going on.

Afterall it is Vettel who is really relaxed about everything and dont even care at all, and Webber is whining about everything, not weird vettel got the new wing, he was the first red bull championship contender and it probably even suited vettel better.

Also i think they want to keep the wing together therefore giving it to Vettel, i was surprised at how Webber managed to win, so unusual for him, when he gets mad about anything it results in bad track performance.

[Fil]

..i was surprised at how Webber managed to win, so unusual for him, when he gets mad about anything it results in bad track performance.

i hope you're fishing with that line, cos you'll be getting some bites here !


I wouldn't be surprised if Mark now goes back to the table for contract re-negotiations, ensuring he's protected from such a situation occurring again.

This has gone beyond the point of no return now. We're most definitely in Senna/Prost territory here. Just a matter of whether this pairing lasts longer than the Macca boys did.

[gridwalker]

Webber doesn't help himself though; he sometimes just needs to take things on the chin and stop making his dissatisfaction so public.

Webber has an expression that makes it look like someone has taken a --- on his breakfast cereal whenever things aren't going his way (rightly or wrongly) and this leads to controversy and bad PR. Given that their race team exists as a PR vehicle (no pun intended), this is not going to endear him to management and is going to make his situation worse!

I'm not going to say what is right and what is wrong, but sometimes you have to let your performance do the talking (though Valencia wouldn't have helped his cause very much).

[marcush.]

beither seb nor webbo can compare with those two you mention.they are both bound to what
Dr.Marko tells them to do or not to.
As said before..they clearly know how to throw away this Championship..acting as if they had a comfort zone ,ignoring that Hamilton does not let the ball drop that often to stand any chance he will not be there to grab the championship.
It would not be first time in f1 history that the quickest car is not winning the pot....
if you had no problems go and create some..but they easily forget that they do NOT lead this and macs has even on this difficult weekend scored strongly with both cars .

[ringo]

This relationship is worse than Hamilton Alonso, much worse, almost Prost Senna like.

It will cost them the WCC too.

[autogyro]

I agree.
If Button and Hamilton were at RB they would have won both championships twice over by now.