Alonso full of mistakes.

[speedsense]

If the gained position is 9th the car should return to tenth, regardless of the car in tenth place. As the gained position effects all cars in the race (especially the ones behind)IMHO...

I like that version. So if you are in car B in a train of three cars A, B, C

If car A is still on the track, then you drop back to behind car A.

If the other car is out of the race you drop back to behind car C (ie the one that that was behind you when you made the bad move).

What happens if the other car pits, do you have to drop back say 5 places to get back in formation? Can you pit before doing that

...I would argue that the meaning is just "position"
if it's a gained position, then you have to remove the gain...
We had a rule here in the states, (in Trans Am) that due a large amount of contact and cars getting that were getting taken out of races. If you made contact with a car and it was determined that you caused the car to spin, Your car could not finish in front of that car. If you crashed the car out of the race, and you went on to win. You still finished behind the crashed out car and the win was removed.
Not quite the same thing, but "position" based on the actions of another car.
But the rule stopped the contact.
IMHO

[myurr]

Doesn't the rule predicate that the "position" should be given back? If the gained position is 9th the car should return to tenth, regardless of the car in tenth place. As the gained position effects all cars in the race (especially the ones behind)IMHO...

I believe that the rule is you will get a drive-through penalty. The advice that comes with it is that if you give the place back then the rule won't be enforced.

[Paul]

And that is why it should be done immediately. If you cut the corner, you are likely out of the racing line anyway. So just take a look in the mirror and let the other car past. Then start thinking of a move more clever than the one you have just tried.

[Richard]

We have seen rulings in the past that the driver is instructed by the stewards to give back. The drive through penalty is used if it is not possible to give back - because the race has ended, or the other car is off track.

Speed sense - Would the "position" rule only apply if the other car is off track, or pits? In normal racing the current arrangement would apply - the car would drop back behind the one that was originally in front?

In Singapore 09, Webber had to drop 2 places to get behind Alonso:

Mark Webber the opportunity to overtake Alonso on the outside of Turn 7. Both Alonso and Webber went off track as Webber completed the move. Stewards deemed Webber's move illegal[14] and on lap seven he was told to hand the position back to Alonso, which also meant letting Timo Glock through as the German had also passed Alonso on the first lap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Singa ... _Prix#Race

[myurr]

We have seen rulings in the past that the driver is instructed by the stewards to give back. The drive through penalty is used if it is not possible to give back - because the race has ended, or the other car is off track.

Speed sense - Would the "position" rule only apply if the other car is off track, or pits? In normal racing the current arrangement would apply - the car would drop back behind the one that was originally in front?

In Singapore 09, Webber had to drop 2 places to get behind Alonso:

Mark Webber the opportunity to overtake Alonso on the outside of Turn 7. Both Alonso and Webber went off track as Webber completed the move. Stewards deemed Webber's move illegal[14] and on lap seven he was told to hand the position back to Alonso, which also meant letting Timo Glock through as the German had also passed Alonso on the first lap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Singa ... _Prix#Race

Actually following the wikipedia citation leads to this quote on the BBC website:

Mark Webber, meanwhile, is told by his team to allow Timo Glock and Fernando Alonso past as his first-lap overtake is, after all, deemed illegal.

Nothing to suggest this was a stewards ruling at all. It's much more likely that this is similar to the way every other incident has been handled:

1. The team ask race control if Charlie thinks the overtake was legitimate (McLaren actually did this in Spa 08 and were told Whiting felt the team had complied).

2. Charlie will either say yay or nay, but this is only his advice and opinion it's not an actual stewards ruling.

3. Should he say yup it was fine it can still be referred to the stewards and they can still hand down a penalty (as in Spa).

The rule is that the penalty for passing a car whilst off track you will receive a drive through penalty. Handing back the place or, in exceptional circumstances (such as avoiding a crashed car I would imagine), then the rule is waived.

There was nothing about Alonso's pass on Kubica to suggest that he should be granted an exception, and as Kubica retired just after Ferrari had stopped discussing the matter with Race Control (which in itself appears to have taken a few minutes, which suggests a certain amount of back and forward from the team) the stewards had no choice but to impose the standard penalty.

There isn't anything untoward here, Alonso and Ferrari sought advantage where there was none to be had and received a penalty.

[Richard]

Nothing to suggest this was a stewards ruling at all. It's much more likely that this is similar to the way every other incident has been handled:

1. The team ask race control if Charlie thinks the overtake was legitimate (McLaren actually did this in Spa 08 and were told Whiting felt the team had complied).

Agreed - I had forgotten Charlie. In my mind, I had merged him with the stewards. Spa and Singapore illustrate the current set up very well.

[Pup]

Well, in this case, it seems that Charlie told Ferrari three separate times that Alonso needed to concede the spot. I think Ferrari's argument that it took the stewards too long doesn't wash, since obviously they were arguing the matter with Charlie from the moment of the incident. Whether they continued to argue with the stewards we don't know, but I think it's safe to assume they did.

Charlie says, "Give the spot back." Ferrari says, "Stick it."

[WhiteBlue]

So Ferrari argued until Alonso could not give the place back although Charlie had told them immediately after the incident. They got the drive through after the stewards deliberated over an acceptable period and were caught out by the safety car. Fair enough. They have no reason to complain.

[ISLAMATRON]

Well, in this case, it seems that Charlie told Ferrari three separate times that Alonso needed to concede the spot. I think Ferrari's argument that it took the stewards too long doesn't wash, since obviously they were arguing the matter with Charlie from the moment of the incident. Whether they continued to argue with the stewards we don't know, but I think it's safe to assume they did.

Charlie says, "Give the spot back." Ferrari says, "Stick it."

Good old Ferrari, cheating again

[lotus7]

The drive through penalty is used if it is not possible to give back - because the race has ended, .......

Now how would a drive through be possible if the race has ended?

[hollus]

Islamatron, no cheating there. They dutifully served the drive through.

[ISLAMATRON]

served the drive through after cheating, and only after trying to argue out of the penalty for their clear cheating.

Alonso cheated the corner & Kubica and then the team tried to cheat the system, at least they didnt get away with it.

[hollus]

They pushed the rules to the limit, and decided to risk it escalating to a proper penalty. It's not cheating, is saying we thing it is OK and send it to the stewards if you must. Charlie did, the stewards ruled and Ferrari obeyed the rules. The rules, not Charlie's opinion.

[ringo]

They tried to cheat by virtue of arguing.

[GTO]

It was a very disappointing & poor drive by Alonso from Start to Finish.
-almost stalled the engine at start
-quite dumb trying to pass Kubica on the outside of slow turn. Kubica had the inside line. Even I knew he was going to run wide & was not going to give Alonso any room.
-after Alonso cut corner & got ahead, all he had to do was slow just enough to tuck into Kubica's slipsteam & make the pass (on the inside line) in the upcoming few corners.
-after his drive through, he was over driving the car & running wide on turns.
He was driving like a rookie trying to muscle his way around instead of being relaxed, smooth & using his instincts. Alonso should take some lessons from Button who I thought drove a fantastic race starting from 14th to finish 4th.