Strange going-ons at Red Bull

[raymondu999]

In fact, someone pointed out recently that Webber's win smacked of Monza 2007... You could sense that Alonso was not going to be in McLaren anymore, and he just dominated the weekend.

[proutyc]

Listening to the post race commentary from Horner again last night. suggests that decision was based on who was leading the WDC. go back and listen, it refer's that Mark would now be in the box seat. Will be interesting to see if this holds true.

Definitely appears to have caused some damage to their brand based on the discussions here.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

In fact, someone pointed out recently that Webber's win smacked of Monza 2007... You could sense that Alonso was not going to be in McLaren anymore, and he just dominated the weekend.

And what happened to him after those races???

[WhiteBlue]

I have a huge amount of respect for Mark, and he had his own reasons for saying what he did. He clearly felt aggrieved that the team gave Sebastian Vettel his wing prior to qualifying, and he saw an opportunity to turn the situation in his favour by making his feelings plain to the media. That is his prerogative.

That is not to say, though, that I agree with Mark. As Christian Horner explained, his team were in an invidious position. With just one new front wing and two hungry drivers, he applied a logic he felt would give Red Bull the best chance of winning the championship. That is his prerogative.

OK, so the logic helped Sebastian as the leading driver, but to be fair to the team, with the standings now reversed, they have already said they will apply the same logic next time, which would help Mark.

The mistake Red Bull made, and which Christian has admitted, was that they did not go into the weekend with that system already in place and publicly known; that way they would not have left themselves open to accusations of partisanship.

This rather sounds like miscommunication but mistreatment.

[Confused_Andy]

Whats the point of reading anything DC says about Redbull, its all going to be preconceived bollocks made to put RB in good light.

[proutyc]

For the reason that they are the same comments made by Horner.

They have made it public that that is how it was decided. If it happens next round you could then argue if MW doesn't get priority then there are politics involved, if not then there weren't any....

As I said early if a RBR driver wins the WDC I'd like it to be MW.

Though not handled well by the team I think its lit his fire. long may it be lit and he win more races

[BreezyRacer]

Listening to the post race commentary from Horner again last night. suggests that decision was based on who was leading the WDC. go back and listen, it refer's that Mark would now be in the box seat. Will be interesting to see if this holds true.

Definitely appears to have caused some damage to their brand based on the discussions here.

Well guess who had the points lead going into Turkey? And how did that turn out?

[nipo]

For a man of his maturity and status (seasoned F1 driver, GP winner and the lead of the GPDA), I'm sorry to say he's acting really childish. As DC pointed out, it would have been better for him to shout internally rather than going public. I thought Seb had a character and Mark would be the more accomodating person, but it turns out everyone has their limits. It's going to be interesting how Horner will try to fix this.

Speaking of Horner, the earlier crash and this wing incident spell a lack of management skill. He's not sensitive enough and is not getting hands on into these matters. He needs to up his attention otherwise his team is going to spin out of control, which looks like a very probable outcome for now.

Last year they lost to reliability, this year they are losing to team politics. Look at McLaren, they are creeping away with points when all this happens...

[myurr]

For a man of his maturity and status (seasoned F1 driver, GP winner and the lead of the GPDA), I'm sorry to say he's acting really childish. As DC pointed out, it would have been better for him to shout internally rather than going public. I thought Seb had a character and Mark would be the more accomodating person, but it turns out everyone has their limits. It's going to be interesting how Horner will try to fix this.

Speaking of Horner, the earlier crash and this wing incident spell a lack of management skill. He's not sensitive enough and is not getting hands on into these matters. He needs to up his attention otherwise his team is going to spin out of control, which looks like a very probable outcome for now.

Last year they lost to reliability, this year they are losing to team politics. Look at McLaren, they are creeping away with points when all this happens...

And how well did it work out for DC in keeping quiet about it all when at McLaren? And to be fair to Webber it was his team that started the whole public war of words when it publicly criticised him for the crash in Turkey when everyone else in F1 was blaming Vettel. It was Marko and Horner that decided to take the teams internal politics public.

MW is using the only weapon he has to force the team into giving him an equal chance, public opinion. Red Bull isn't a race team it's a PR exercise, and Mark has clearly learnt from Turkey that public opinion will cause his team to back down and change its tune.

[myurr]

This rather sounds like miscommunication but mistreatment.

Actually it sounds like made up justification after the fact. They didn't apply that logic in Turkey did they, when Webber was leading the championship. Instead they tried to engineer a situation where by Vettel could pass even though this then left Webber vulnerable to Hamilton potentially costing him further points.

So this 'policy' is clearly something they have put in place since Turkey without telling anyone even within the team, and that they enacted again without telling anyone!? Why wasn't this policy mentioned during the pre-qualifying drivers briefing? The news reports make it sound like Webber's wing was taken away AFTER this briefing and almost immediately before qualifying.

Why did the team also claim that the front wing held no performance benefit only suitability to a particular driving style when it has since leaked that not only was there an aerodynamic benefit but that the wing itself was lighter weight allowing more optimal placement of balast? There has been no denial of this from the team so I presume it's true?

[WhiteBlue]

I think that Mark Webber cheekily used the good opportunity of Horner mis communicating the wing decision to put fire to the roof at Red Bull and pressurize Vettel. This is his best opportunity to win a WDC and he may well be putting all his eggs in one basket. If he has no intention to drive for Red Bull next season he can now easily piss them off and make sure that they do not help Vettel with developments that aid his style. The wing issue in my humble opinion wasn't really about Mark getting something that suited his performance but prevent something that made his rival more comfortable.

He did not prevent Seb from getting the wing because he had no rational points that swayed Horner his way. But then Horner had made two mistakes. First he did not anticipate the problem and did not agree with his drivers how the problem would be handled. Second he failed to personally communicate his decision with Webber which was the even bigger blunder. The whole issue may have been minuscule in terms of performance but it provided Mark Webber with a good way to play with Seb's mind. He got the reporters to paint him in the preferred son/bad boy position. It all worked beautifully and Vettel made a bad mistake with the botched start. I'm sure he learned a lot from Webber how deliver a blow to a rival and look lily white himself.

Obviously I focus on myself and so does he I guess. Especially after what happened in the past people have different opinions. I have my experiences and sometimes, good and bad, you get to know people a little better and see their true faces. So I think I have learned my lesson and focus on myself.

[Chaparral]

myuur wrote:

MW is using the only weapon he has to force the team into giving him an equal chance, public opinion. Red Bull isn't a race team it's a PR exercise, and Mark has clearly learnt from Turkey that public opinion will cause his team to back down and change its tune.

- myuur you hit the nail on the head - RRB is a PR machine and exist first and foremost to sell beverages - nothing more. Vettel is the accepted face that Red Bull would like to promote to sell their drinks - Mark probably isnt. Marko runs the team and he has always come out in favour of Vettel and OK thats fine but dont expect mark to sit there and cop the crap he has - he did a very smart thing in taking this public as it now brings some intense scrutiny on the team by the motor sport and general media every race from now till end of season - Webber has a very good chance of taking out the WDC this year and Id challenge anyone to not feel as passionate as he does towards achieving that - everyone would

[autogyro]

They say there is no bad publicity and I think RB are proving this.
A pity it could cost the championships.

[myurr]

I think that Mark Webber cheekily used the good opportunity of Horner mis communicating the wing decision to put fire to the roof at Red Bull and pressurize Vettel. This is his best opportunity to win a WDC and he may well be putting all his eggs in one basket. If he has no intention to drive for Red Bull next season he can now easily piss them off and make sure that they do not help Vettel with developments that aid his style. The wing issue in my humble opinion wasn't really about Mark getting something that suited his performance but prevent something that made his rival more comfortable.

Then why would the entire paddock row in behind him and say that what Red Bull did was unprecedented. Or are they all out to get young Seb as well?

He did not prevent Seb from getting the wing because he had no rational points that swayed Horner his way.

This presumes he had opportunity to discuss this with the team. But as we both know the decision maker didn't even bother to personally discuss this with him. How is he to discuss this rationally when his team boss doesn't seek to discuss it at all?

But then Horner had made two mistakes. First he did not anticipate the problem and did not agree with his drivers how the problem would be handled. Second he failed to personally communicate his decision with Webber which was the even bigger blunder.

If he did not anticipate the problem then he would be the biggest fool in the pit lane. The general impression given throughout every other interview up and down the pit lane is one of complete disbelief that a team would EVER do that to their driver.

I actually don't think Horner is that stupid, I suspect that he is just weak and was acting under advice from Marko. He didn't know how to justify it to Webber so ran away from the confrontation.

The whole issue may have been minuscule in terms of performance

Then why bother switching the wings and risking the blow up!? The data gathered would have been equally valid on either car. Red Bull probably knew they had a significant advantage here, especially with McLaren's troubles, so this was only ever going to be about choosing which of their cars would have the advantage going into qualifying.

but it provided Mark Webber with a good way to play with Seb's mind. He got the reporters to paint him in the preferred son/bad boy position. It all worked beautifully and Vettel made a bad mistake with the botched start. I'm sure he learned a lot from Webber how deliver a blow to a rival and look lily white himself.

This all started when Red Bull publicly slated Webber for the crash in Turkey, starting a complete fiasco where they went from attributing 100% of the blame to Webber through various different conflicting explanations until they back tracked completely and attributed equal blame to each driver.

In Silverstone the team again treated Webber badly - whether or not the wing made a difference the fact that no one from the team discussed the switching of parts from his car to the other side of the garage was very bad treatment of a driver - and you think that Webber's anger was made up to play with Vettel's mind? That somehow this entire event was of Webber's doing?

As Webber is now the points leader would you expect Vettel to sacrifice parts from his car to Webber's benefit? Would you expect Vettel to allow Webber past to boost his championship challenge should he be in a position to do so? If so why were you arguing differently in Turkey?

Blah blah blah.

I guess that settles it then, Seb's the good guy and this whole incident was cooked up by Webber to undermine him. What else do you expect him to say?

[myurr]

They say there is no bad publicity and I think RB are proving this.
A pity it could cost the championships.

Possibly true for the brand, not true for the race team.