Anyone Else Sick Of The Fuel Saving Section In Races???

[WhiteBlue]

It takes no genius to realize that peak-flow must be at far more than 50% of the time, by simply watch an inboard camera.

Just read the max power figures for the different tracks. It tells you exactly how long max power is applied at each track. It is greatly varying from track to track and I bet the average isn't exceeding 50%.

[xpensive]

You bet? I was under the impression that your numbers carried some weight?

[ESPImperium]

Onething WB touched on, and others as well, tyres, why not go back to the thing where drivers and teams chose their rubber for the race before Quali, or going into FP3???

If you choose primes, you get 3 sets, if you choose the options you get 5 sets say.

That would introduce some intresting strategy into the race weekend as well.

[tok-tokkie]

I much prefer it as it is now. Much better idea of who is where. Short fueling & having to economise is an interesting tactical contest. The proposed Le Mans regulations are even better.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I much prefer it as it is now. Much better idea of who is where. Short fueling & having to economise is an interesting tactical contest. The proposed Le Mans regulations are even better.

What are they Tok-Tokkie???

[raymondu999]

I find it quite ironic that now it seems strategy is even more important than in the old days? I may be alone on this one, but hear me out. In the old days everyone was on different fuel strategies, and they were quicker/slower accordingly. But now, fuel-wise, everyone is on relatively the same pace. The only way, if you're incapable of overtakes, is to strategise. We saw how well that worked out for Button in Australia. Maybe he lucked into it, maybe he didn't. But the point is, it got him at least 2nd place, and when Sebastian Vettel DNF'ed, he was in the prime position to pick it up.

[donskar]

A couple points often overlooked (IMHO):

1) F1 race cars, transporters, motorhomes, etc use an infinitessimally (SP?)small amount of fuel when compared to the total amount consumed worldwide. There is no change to F1 -- not even banning the races altogether -- that could make a significant difference to the world energy situation.

2) Again IMHO, I think it is naive to think that F1 engine designers will be able to be more innovative in developing fuel saving techniques than engineers dedicated to production car engines. F1 engineers will have to work to get to where production engines are right now -- for example, direct injection and variable valve timing (banned in F1) are already saving fuel and reducing emissions in production cars.

Strictly MO, but I think F1 and fuel saving is a shotgun marriage made in PR hell.

[raymondu999]

@donskar

I think you have the wrong idea. The thread is about how drivers are underfuelled and have to save fuel in the race, rather than the green initiatives such as KERS to reduce F1's energy consumption.

[WhiteBlue]

I think it is naive to think that F1 engine designers will be able to be more innovative in developing fuel saving techniques than engineers dedicated to production car engines. F1 engineers will have to work to get to where production engines are right now -- for example, direct injection and variable valve timing (banned in F1) are already saving fuel and reducing emissions in production cars.

Strictly MO, but I think F1 and fuel saving is a shotgun marriage made in PR hell.

I think you are wrong there. F1 is currently inhibited to make a contribution to efficiency technology. All the logical approaches are blocked by regulations and all the incentives have been wrong in the past. This is going to change with the 2013 power train, chassis and sporting regulations. There will be clear incentives to win by using efficiency increases. The technology fields that are needed to improve fuel efficiency will be opened: Combustion and valve technology, injection technology, KERS and HERS technology, low friction cylinder configurations, thermodynamically more efficient turbo technology over natural aspired engines, adaptive aero, new wheel and suspension technology. F1 will set their bests minds to the task to make cars faster by increasing efficiency across the board in many different fields. I'm very confident some of the new inventions will help road cars as well.

[Just_a_fan]

There is also the point, that F1 fails to make often enough, and that is quite simply that F1 engines are pretty efficient as it is. Certainly much more so than road car engines.

There are practical limits to how efficient the internal combustion engine can become anyway. That's got nothing to do with the rules and everything to do with chemistry and combustion physics.

[WhiteBlue]

There is also the point, that F1 fails to make often enough, and that is quite simply that F1 engines are pretty efficient as it is. Certainly much more so than road car engines.

The efficiency you talk about is based on producing power levels much in excess of that seen in road cars. It is an apples/bananas comparison. With the current technology such efficiencies cannot be transferred to road cars at all.

There are practical limits to how efficient the internal combustion engine can become anyway. That's got nothing to do with the rules and everything to do with chemistry and combustion physics.

You seem to forget that engineers expect the 2013 cars to use only 75% of the fuel that the 2010 car use at the same performance. 2013 F1 technology will be much more road relevant than 1992-2010 F1 technology has ever been. Particularly the combustion physics, the thermodynamic aspects and the way the power is controlled yields massive efficiency gains.

[xpensive]

...
You seem to forget that engineers expect the 2013 cars to use only 75% of the fuel that the 2010 car use at the same performance. 2013 F1 technology will be much more road relevant than 1992-2010 F1 technology has ever been. Particularly the combustion physics, the thermodynamic aspects and the way the power is controlled yields massive efficiency gains.

And where is this written?

[mep]

Yes I want refuelling back.
It adds a big factor of strategy to the races making the races more difficult and less predictable. Racing should be the science to find the fastest way to cover a distance in shortest time. If you do so with refuelling a car -fine do so. There is nothing wrong with passing a car in pits. In fact it's even more exciting. It takes the whole race instead of just a few seconds. What can be better than a perfect strategy with several pit stops and all the possible problems and kilometres to work out in the end by just a few tents of a second?
Not a on track overtaking manoeuvre especially because they usually only work because the leading car is much slower and the driver making a mistake.

Btw. When there is refuelling I don’t care about some drivers saving fuel others will push hard. In the end the one wins who had the better tactic.
Don’t turn F1 into a fuel save challenge. If you like this why you don’t watch some shell-eco challenge then? They try to run as far possible with 1 liter of fuel. You see it’s totally different definition of racing:
As fast as possible vs as far as possible.

[WhiteBlue]

...
You seem to forget that engineers expect the 2013 cars to use only 75% of the fuel that the 2010 car use at the same performance. 2013 F1 technology will be much more road relevant than 1992-2010 F1 technology has ever been. Particularly the combustion physics, the thermodynamic aspects and the way the power is controlled yields massive efficiency gains.

And where is this written?

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6508 it is all quoted in this thread

[xpensive]

But that doesn't mean squat WB, it's just F1T "Engineers" typical speculations!