Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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Tumbarello wrote:Ciro, with all due respect, your sarcasm and unbridled and uncritical admiration for Vettel is wearing thin. If you don't think mere mortals are fit to discuss motor racing, only to worship it, I wonder what you are doing here writing essay length posts.
Dear Tumbarello: the length of my posts is legendary, sorry. The one you're talking about is small, by my standards. I always apologize, but I cannot avoid it. What I was doing here was being the moderator, until a couple of months ago.

Now, on the subject of my sarcasm, experience has showed me that is the best way to show the weaknesses of other arguments.

How my arguments are wearing thin escapes me: I have posted twice in the last three months. How can I wear somebody?

I agree with you on the possibility of mortals discussing motor racing: I've devoted 5 years of my life and I have helped Steven De Groote as much as I can to provide you with this very forum, something which should be proof of my intentions.

However, let me remind you of the wise words of Garfield the Cat: "Let your words be sweet, in case you have to swallow them". Why, right after the end of the championship, would somebody want to discuss a mistake in a race or how dumb was the WDC in a particular situation is hard to comprehend for me. If that's worshiping, well, then I am a member of the Sacred Church of Formula One of the Latter Day Drivers.

Allow me to disagree on this: aficionados should TRY to learn while they discuss. What I don't agree with is criticism motivated by envy or ignorance and I'm sure that people that posted here while I moderated still remember how hard I was on empty criticism.

This is a technical forum, not a place to comment "how retarded is the WDC" or "how boring is F1" or "how uninteresting and cold the end of this championship leaves me".

If you wish to find a place to post about THAT, please, by all means, go to Pitpass... there you will find minute analysis of ALL the mistakes of ALL the drivers and how GREAT are the driver people likes and the curious aspects of personality cult, or its sibling, "personality hate". If you did the same here, at least while I worked as mod, you risked having your post published in the "Ying Yang Fanboy Thread", so accusing me of worshiping Vettel could seem naive, at least to me.

We (and I speak for a sizable portion of posters, I'm sure) at this forum, hate the empty, easy, repetitive, unimaginative comments you can find in other forums at a dime the dozen.

I really hate comments pontificating about racing and criticizing drivers (any driver!) in posts that, when summed up and put together, are as boring and as lengthy as mine.

If you want to criticize something, criticize the cars and propose new ideas for their design, that's the way of the engineer. I've said many times that an engineer, watching a glass with water doesn't say "the glass is half empty" or "the glass is half full". An engineer says: "we have here half a glass we don't need".

It is very EASY to say things like "Nadal doesn't know sh*t about tennis". When Federer is talking and saying that, I listen. On the other hand, when it is a commentary by my fat, out-of-shape neighbor, I smile. Is that short and clear enough? ;)

I bet some people prefers to "hear" me being sarcastic instead of direct... but fortunately, I don't have to restrain myself any longer. Now is DaveKillens turn to be restrained... so, you can count on my lengthy, boring and sarcastic posts from now on. I used to think they were part of the soul of F1Tech, but, hey, what do I know?
Ciro

Tamburello
Tamburello
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Joined: 29 Sep 2010, 14:52
Location: Sydney, Australia.

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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"This is a technical forum, not a place to comment "how retarded is the WDC" or "how boring is F1" or "how uninteresting and cold the end of this championship leaves me"."

If you find a post of mine that contains anything like these and you show it to me, I will gladly not post here again.

We disagree on Vettel's move in Turkey, so be it. I don't buy his explanation that came a few days later, i.e. that he lost control of the car. That smacks of a PR statement. Why the 'he's bloody crazy" gesture if you have lost control of YOUR car in trying to pass him. He lost control of the car at Spa and that was clearly visible on the footage.

I know you don't like to discuss non technical aspects of the sport but this is hardly the most technical of topics, this thread, is it? And besides, I'm not an engineer so cannot begin to discuss technical topic authoritatively. If that should preclude my participation on this forum, I will move on.

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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I don't think that one has to be a learned engineer to competently discuss technical matters. It is the spirit that counts. Engineers look at the world with inquisitive eyes and an open mind. Their attitude to the world is "How can I make things easier, more elegant and more efficient." This attitude collides to a certain degree with the hard core fan attitude. Some fans aren't interested to learn something if it doesn't fit the glorified view of their hero. They have a great capacity to ignore facts that do not fit their perception.

This may sound patronizing from a person who openly declares himself a fan of certain drivers, but the nature of passion drives all of us to certain preferences. I believe that is ok as long as we are prepared to apply the tools of our trade:
  • Asking the engineering question I posted above
  • Discriminate between opinion and facts
  • Try to find a physical model that describes the process
  • Find figures to quantify what you are investigating or finding
  • Publish your finding and appreciate reasonable criticism
  • Agree to disagree if you cannot develop a common view


The point #4 is usually very easy to spot. Figures that you agree on are very much appreciated as the "technical way" on this board. Figures are more often factual than language. This is particularly true if they relate to a physical model and not statistics.

How do we apply the engineering attitude to the topic at hand? First we will probably find that the OP wasn't in an engineering mood that day. He reflects on an experience. This is more like a chef attitude IMO: "Should I use pepper or garlic for this salad?" The discussion for the pepper or garlic preference will quickly fill reams of pages. The engineer would be aware of that and will expect 99.9% opinion and very few facts in this thread.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Raptor22
Raptor22
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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Ok this is my last input into turkey.

Vettel did not steer the car into Webber. Webber moved right and Vettel moved right. In the instant that that even t occurs the driver assumes the other driver is giving him room. Then Webber no longer moves right and parks the car. in the middle of the track but aimed at the corner which means its is in effecti, relative to the racetrack, moving left.
There was more than half a cars length, hence the right rear touched the left front. Those are facts.
Chose to see it, chose not to. blindness and ignorance are choices, stupidity is not.

Wherevere Red Ull has offices they are celebrating the Double.
Its been a great year for RedBull globally. and with RedBull Airracing hopefully set to remain in 2011, darn I'll be drinking lots it.

Tamburello
Tamburello
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Joined: 29 Sep 2010, 14:52
Location: Sydney, Australia.

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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Half a car length, three quarters of a car length or nine tenths of a car length ahead is still not clear.

Gerhard Berger
Gerhard Berger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2010, 11:17

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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Raptor22 wrote:Ok this is my last input into turkey.

Vettel did not steer the car into Webber. Webber moved right and Vettel moved right. In the instant that that even t occurs the driver assumes the other driver is giving him room. Then Webber no longer moves right and parks the car. in the middle of the track but aimed at the corner which means its is in effecti, relative to the racetrack, moving left.
There was more than half a cars length, hence the right rear touched the left front. Those are facts.
Chose to see it, chose not to. blindness and ignorance are choices, stupidity is not.

Wherevere Red Ull has offices they are celebrating the Double.
Its been a great year for RedBull globally. and with RedBull Airracing hopefully set to remain in 2011, darn I'll be drinking lots it.
I'm not sure what world you're living in raptor.

What i saw was Webber driving straight, whilst Vettel moving right, into Webber, before clearing him.

andrew
andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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Vettel had the line for the corner and if I remember correctly was ahead. He was taking his line as he entitled to do so. It was Vettel's corner and Webber should have conceded.

Gerhard Berger
Gerhard Berger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2010, 11:17

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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andrew wrote:Vettel had the line for the corner
They were going down the straight. They hadn't even arrived at the corner yet.
and if I remember correctly was ahead.
He was ahead, but not fully
He was taking his line as he entitled to do so.
He was not fully past Webber, so he had no entitlement to take the racing line at that point.
It was Vettel's corner and Webber should have conceded.
Like i said, they hadn't even reached the corner at the point of the collision. There's no reason why Webber should have conceded. They were racing for position.

andrew
andrew
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Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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Gerhard Berger wrote:He was not fully past Webber, so he had no entitlement to take the racing line at that point.
What? Did Vettel need planning permission or something like that? A driver can position their car wherever they like, as long as they only make one move. For Webber the corner was lost from a long way off. He should have conceded - it is that simple.

Anyway, it all ended well and the correct guy won the title. End of story.

Gerhard Berger
Gerhard Berger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2010, 11:17

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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andrew wrote:
Gerhard Berger wrote:He was not fully past Webber, so he had no entitlement to take the racing line at that point.
What? Did Vettel need planning permission or something like that? A driver can position their car wherever they like, as long as they only make one move. For Webber the corner was lost from a long way off. He should have conceded - it is that simple.
No need to get sarcastic.

When 2 cars are side by side, they can't position their car wherever they want. You can't simply drive into other cars, like Vettel did. Once Vettel was fully past, he would have been entitled to take the racing line, but he was not fully past!

You keep talking about the corner, yet they hadn't even reached the corner. Webber had not lost the corner by any means since he had a much better line for the corner.

You still havn't justified why you think Webber should have conceded. Statements like "it is that simple" won't cut it.

andrew
andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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I don't resort to sarcasm, it is the lowest form of wit. I'm much more of a surrealist.

I have justified it. Vettel had the line for the corner (I wrote that above but you missed it....).

Gerhard Berger
Gerhard Berger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2010, 11:17

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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andrew wrote:I don't resort to sarcasm, it is the lowest form of wit. I'm much more of a surrealist.

I have justified it. Vettel had the line for the corner (I wrote that above but you missed it....).
They hadn't reached the corner.

andrew
andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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And? That doesn't matter. You position your car before you get to the corner to give yourself the optimum line.

Gerhard Berger
Gerhard Berger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2010, 11:17

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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andrew wrote:And? That doesn't matter. You position your car before you get to the corner to give yourself the optimum line.
Thanks for that piece of information. However, it's completely irrelavent here.

andrew
andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Nobody seems too excited over Vettel winning the WDC

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Explain?