Wow, so Clark, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso were/are all fairly average? All won in what was the best car of its day (Lotus 25, MP4/4, Benetton B194, Renault R25). Nice to finally lay that ghost to rest.andrew wrote:No I'm not kidding. Hamilton won in the best car, big deal. .
Indeed, it seems to be missing the last couple of Grands Prix. I remember LH overtaking Kobayashi in Japan and Abu Dhabi and it shows just one of them.vall wrote:if I read that chart correctly, Alonso did not overtake LH, which is not true
...andrew wrote:No I'm not kidding. Hamilton won in the best car, big deal. Let's see him do it in the 2nd or 3rd best. Until then he is just someonewho was in the right place at the right time with the right team manager who picked him up at an early age.Giblet wrote:andrew wrote:Partly the British media, partly there are a lot of hackneyed cliches bandied about concerning Hamilton but mostly marketing by McLaren.
I say stick him in another car then judge the quality of the driver. the true greats can win in a dog of car. Young pretenders can only manage in the best machine at that given time. Sadly, the fanboys don't see it like this.
Your kidding right? You don't need to be a fan to see that he has made some amazing passes in F1, and was known as a great passer BEFORE he entered F1, in a series where everyone drives the EXACT SAME CAR.
There are plenty of drivers who were fantastic before F1 but only shone in the best car. GP2 means very little once a driver has made it into F1, unless you like to reminise about past glories.
I just did a Google search and found a link to another forum.Mystery Steve wrote:@andrew
Out of curiosity, do you have a link to where you found that chart or did you develop that yourself? I'm wondering if maybe anyone has the stats on overtakes for each GP that I can use for a quick study.
Call it however you like but see it totally differently. The facts that Ron Dennis had invested so much time and money in Hamiltons career meant that he could not afford for Hamilton to not come out on top. I accept your opinion on this so kindly extend me the same courtesy. As for not winning the title by being average? Remember Damon Hill? As I have said before, I will not change my opion on Hamilton until he wins in a car that is not the best.Just_a_fan wrote:Wow, so Clark, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso were/are all fairly average? All won in what was the best car of its day (Lotus 25, MP4/4, Benetton B194, Renault R25). Nice to finally lay that ghost to rest.andrew wrote:No I'm not kidding. Hamilton won in the best car, big deal. .
You don't like Hamilton? Great. But don't claim he's an at-best-average driver. You don't win the title by being average. Don't ever forget that he ran with a double world champion in his first season. Ran with him and stayed with him; a double world champion in the same car no less. Please point to another driver who has done the same and finished ahead in the title table...
In fact, please point to another driver who has shared his car with not one, but two different world champions and finished above them both in the title tables.
And please don't play the "McLaren was on his side card"; no one takes on the emcumbant double world champion and then gives favourite status to a rookie.
ell66 wrote:
...
first off he's never had the out and out fastest car like vettel and button had in there respective championship wins. in 2007 the mclaren was similar to ferrari, and in 2008 it was a bit slower.
oh and lets not forget how as ROOKIE, he beat the reghning double world champion who many still claim to be the best, which baffles me personally but thats another matter.
Last year he destryoed button another rehning world champ, the difference in qualy was more often than not nearly half a second. ....
It's true in a way. Hamilton was not attacked by Alonso the times when Alonso passed him; he simply ran off line when Alonso was way way behind him and Alonso merely took the gifts. That's not an intentional overtake in my book.vall wrote:if I read that chart correctly, Alonso did not overtake LH, which is not true
What about the tens of millions he invested in Alonso's career?andrew wrote:I just did a Google search and found a link to another forum.Mystery Steve wrote:@andrew
Out of curiosity, do you have a link to where you found that chart or did you develop that yourself? I'm wondering if maybe anyone has the stats on overtakes for each GP that I can use for a quick study.
Call it however you like but see it totally differently. The facts that Ron Dennis had invested so much time and money in Hamiltons career meant that he could not afford for Hamilton to not come out on top. I accept your opinion on this so kindly extend me the same courtesy. As for not winning the title by being average? Remember Damon Hill? As I have said before, I will not change my opion on Hamilton until he wins in a car that is not the best.Just_a_fan wrote:Wow, so Clark, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso were/are all fairly average? All won in what was the best car of its day (Lotus 25, MP4/4, Benetton B194, Renault R25). Nice to finally lay that ghost to rest.andrew wrote:No I'm not kidding. Hamilton won in the best car, big deal. .
You don't like Hamilton? Great. But don't claim he's an at-best-average driver. You don't win the title by being average. Don't ever forget that he ran with a double world champion in his first season. Ran with him and stayed with him; a double world champion in the same car no less. Please point to another driver who has done the same and finished ahead in the title table...
In fact, please point to another driver who has shared his car with not one, but two different world champions and finished above them both in the title tables.
And please don't play the "McLaren was on his side card"; no one takes on the emcumbant double world champion and then gives favourite status to a rookie.
ell66 wrote:
behave you complete tool. your wrong in so many ways.
first off he's never had the out and out fastest car like vettel and button had in there respective championship wins. in 2007 the mclaren was similar to ferrari, and in 2008 it was a bit slower.
oh and lets not forget how as ROOKIE, he beat the reghning double world champion who many still claim to be the best, which baffles me personally but thats another matter.
Last year he destryoed button another rehning world champ, the difference in qualy was more often than not nearly half a second. ....
Hamilton was picked up as a kid, Alonso wasn't.n smikle wrote: What about the tens of millions he invested in Alonso's career?
Hamilton was worth it in the end; not only for Mclaren but for Formula 1.
I'm a self confessed Hamilton fan boy, and I'm not keen on Alonso, but an overtake is an overtake regardless. But at the end of the day one driver made a mistake by going off the track and the other didn't.n smikle wrote:It's true in a way. Hamilton was not attacked by Alonso the times when Alonso passed him; he simply ran off line when Alonso was way way behind him and Alonso merely took the gifts. That's not an intentional overtake in my book.vall wrote:if I read that chart correctly, Alonso did not overtake LH, which is not true
You make it sound like like 13 year old Hamilton was driving a formula 1 car while Alonso was sitting down with his arms folded.andrew wrote:Hamilton was picked up as a kid, Alonso wasn't.n smikle wrote: What about the tens of millions he invested in Alonso's career?
Hamilton was worth it in the end; not only for Mclaren but for Formula 1.
