Australian GP 2011 - Albert Park, 24-27 March

[Formula None]

Massa ran wide, over defending his position, carrying too much speed into the corner. So Button would have made the pass regardless, right? And if not, Massa would have only held position by running wide. Just curious, if you run wide of the line while defending and this allows you to maintain position, do similar punishments apply?

[timbo]

Massa ran wide, over defending his position, carrying too much speed into the corner. So Button would have made the pass regardless, right? And if not, Massa would have only held position by running wide. Just curious, if you run wide of the line while defending and this allows you to maintain position, do similar punishments apply?

From what I remember, nobody was punished in such situation.
Also, running too wide usually causes you to loose out on straight afterwards and cook you tyres.

[Tamburello]

Except that we've not really seen the relative aero performance of the '11 cars at all, your assertion is based entirely on the '10 bull being dominant on aero tracks. While I'm sure the bulls will still be good on the fast corners, I would be extremely surprised if the McLaren were much behind (if at all) this season, once their new design is bedded in.

True. Otherthan some reports floating around that Red Bull carried as much as 20km/h more speed on the apexes (apices?) of turn 11/12 in Melbourne

Has anyone actually got some substantiation of those rumours. I've only seen it mentioned on this forum.

Vettel was consistently around 3-4 tenths faster over the rest of the field in sector 3 so he was definitely going more quickly than any other car through the 11-12, whereas his times where often matched for sector 1.

[Formula None]

Button got a drive through, eventually. Seems odd, when the stewards reviewed the pass later, they would have seen that Massa went wide. They would have then known one of two things could have happened: running wide effectively increased the corner's radius and allowed Massa to keep his speed up allowing him to maintain position only by breaking the "two wheels inside the line" rule, or running wide would have been no advantage and Button would have made the pass regardless of how far inside he was.

Is defending to the point where you run wide illegally not similar to passing on the inside illegally?

[Tamburello]

First of all, what makes you think Massa went wide? And secondly, making the radius of the corner longer is more acceptable than making it smaller.

[andartop]

It's obvious JB got confused and actually thought Bernie's idea of introducing shortcuts had come into effect.

Ferrari were also caught out, and expected artificial rain near the end of the race, hence opted for a three stop strategy.

Hard to keep up with all these rule changes every year..

[Just_a_fan]

making the radius of the corner longer is more acceptable than making it smaller.

People on here have been stating that "the rules are the rules" when a less favoured driver is considered to have infringed. In this situation, the rules don't differentiate between "good" white line crossing and "bad" white line crossing.

There's a lot to be said for walls alround the circuit to prevent this sort of thing...

[myurr]

Two are making the track shorter (Hamilton at Spa and Button in Melbourne) and the other is making the track longer (Vettel at Albert Park). End of story.

No it's not 'End of story' as there is no rule saying it's okay if you go the long way around, and there are specific instances of the stewards warning the drivers not to do it such as the first corner at Spa. The rule is clear and was strengthened this year to make it even more explicit - drivers must keep at least one of the four wheels on circuit at all times.

Vettel gained an advantage by running out wide otherwise he wouldn't have done it. He was past Button so was not avoiding a collision but was carrying too much speed to make the corner which was part of the reason why he made it past Button in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for Vettel to be punished, I just want the FIA to be more consistant in applying their own rules and for those on the forum pointing out whenever certain drivers that they dislike get away with a minor infraction to accept that it happens across the board and isn't down to nationalities of the stewards, etc.

I'm unlikely to get either of those things though.

[Tamburello]

making the radius of the corner longer is more acceptable than making it smaller.

People on here have been stating that "the rules are the rules" when a less favoured driver is considered to have infringed. In this situation, the rules don't differentiate between "good" white line crossing and "bad" white line crossing.

There's a lot to be said for walls alround the circuit to prevent this sort of thing...

It's the way the rules are enforced. There are many examples of it the various circuits on the calender; it's not something that has suddenly appeared only for this race.

And I tend to agree with this sort of policing. Cutting a corner to get an advantage is plainly wrong (Button) whilst taking the long way around to make a pass stick by rally crossing across astro turf or some spare piece of tarmac is fine by me.

Half the field goes outside the white lines at the exit of La Source at Spa, we don't see any punishment for that.

[Formula None]

First of all, what makes you think Massa went wide? And secondly, making the radius of the corner longer is more acceptable than making it smaller.

I interpreted all 4 of his wheels being outside white line as running wide. Maybe that's not the case. I posted an image of it on the previous page.

[andrew]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/90288

Rubens blames tyres for his collision, and says he never went for a hole. Id say thats a little twisting of the truth.

It is always the case with Rubens. Hungary 2010 was no different. There was no space to pass Michael on the inside without Michael changing his line, which he did too late. But Rubens made an overly optimistic move then as well as today.

Oh dear Lord! I find I am in agreement with my fellow countryman. This is indeed a strange experience.

[Tamburello]

First of all, what makes you think Massa went wide? And secondly, making the radius of the corner longer is more acceptable than making it smaller.

I interpreted all 4 of his wheels being outside white line as running wide. Maybe that's not the case. I posted an image of it on the previous page.

You have misinterpreted the details in the image. IMO, that you seem to deem to be the white lines of the circuit are simply some other markings (otherwise Alonso is outside them as well! lol).

[Just_a_fan]

And I tend to agree with this sort of policing. Cutting a corner to get an advantage is plainly wrong (Button) whilst taking the long way around to make a pass stick by rally crossing across astro turf or some spare piece of tarmac is fine by me.

I can understand your position on this but the problem with applying the rules (as written) in such a way is that it opens the stewards up to claims of favouritism etc. It's a subjective call. Better to just have a rule that says "X is not ok" and then punish all instances of X. Or write the rules so they say "cutting corners is bad, going wide on exit is ok".

Half the field goes outside the white lines at the exit of La Source at Spa, we don't see any punishment for that.

ISTR last time the FIA were quite clear that going that route would be dealt with severely.

[andrew]

First of all, what makes you think Massa went wide? And secondly, making the radius of the corner longer is more acceptable than making it smaller.

I interpreted all 4 of his wheels being outside white line as running wide. Maybe that's not the case. I posted an image of it on the previous page.

Button passed by going off the track. I think a driver has to have a minimum of 2 wheels on the track. From memory Button was off the track and his penalty was correct. His swipe accross at Massa a few laps later at the end of the straight was truly pathetic and unnessesary as he had won the corner.



If I'm looking at this correctly no one is off the track here. The edge of the track is defined by the white line at the edge of the tarmac and the green stuff.



I think this gets classed as evasive action by Vettel in which case a driver can go off the track. Either way, it is kind of a mute point as Vettel would have in all probibility have repassed the McLaren.

[Rob W]

I think this gets classed as evasive action by Vettel in which case a driver can go off the track. Either way, it is kind of a mute point as Vettel would have in all probibility have repassed the McLaren.

I haven't read all the previous posts on this but also wondered why, if leaving the track to make/complete a pass was not allowed then why was it OK for Vettel to do it here.

It matters nothing that it was the outside, longer path - he couldn't have made that pass on that corner without driving well off the track as he did.

It also matters nothing that Vettel would have passed the McLaren eventually either - you have conduct every pass in accordance with the rules - rule-breaking can't be justified retrospectively with a "it didn't really matter anyway because.." defence.