Australian GP 2011 - Albert Park, 24-27 March

[Tamburello]

I haven't read all the previous posts on this but also wondered why, if leaving the track to make/complete a pass was not allowed then why was it OK for Vettel to do it here.

Button didn't just 'leave' the track. He left the track and at the same time shortened it by going down an old stretch of road that's way quicker than the normal route. The pass, at that stage, was incidental. For example, if this had been qualifying, his time wouldn't have counted!

[GSBellew]

If I'm looking at this correctly no one is off the track here. The edge of the track is defined by the white line at the edge of the tarmac and the green stuff.

The edge of the track on the left is defined as the red and white kerb which I have highlighted with a red line here:



Button went down the escape road bypassing the chicane completely, he took a short cut and did not give up the position he gained as a result, so the penalty was deserved, it was not like he even just ran wide over the kerbs, he cleanly turned in early and too the shortcut.

[raymondu999]

Yes. AFAIK an outside pass, even if off track, is accepted, while an inside corner cutting pass is not.

[Pup]

I think the refs got it right, just from how they've called it in the past; but I do think that they should start policing that move. Sometimes the wider line is faster. Kimi used to take off into the parking lot on occasion as well, and it always griped me a bit. But if the stewards consistently let it go, then you can't really complain.

[raymondu999]

From a purely hotlapping/qualifying point of view taking the outside line is usually slower. Not to mention the parking lots are usually low grip. There were several incidents where such passes have not been penalised. For example Mark Webber overtaking Lewis around the outside of T1 at Hockenheim last year (at the start) etc.

The only advantage I can think of that you get by taking an outside line is if there's a 1st corner tangle, then you drive around that tangle by going around the outside

Btw, for those who are on BBC's feed, even if you're not watching on the BBC, I never realized how much Legard digressed, funny as that is. Martin Brundle talks about the race, while Legard talks about things happening off-track. Not to mention he gets inside/outside messed up, and also front/rear wings (amazingly )

Btw, here's my take on the situation. (This is my first time doing a frame by frame analysis, so please be nice )
Vettel takes a wider line on entry to Turn 3

Vettel cuts back underneath Button to get a better exit from turn 3

By the entry of turn 4, Vettel is ahead of Button

When Button is on the apex of 4, Vettel is ahead:

Button leaves the apex, and Vettel hits the exit kerb of 4. Vettel is clearly much ahead here.

Here is when Vettel's car leaves the track

So for all intents and purposes, the pass was over and done with by the time he left the exit.

[Pandamasque]

Yes. AFAIK an outside pass, even if off track, is accepted, while an inside corner cutting pass is not.

BS! See below.

I think Button was right to cut the corner from the safety stand point (that would be a huge crash with Massa with cars taking off). But he should have given the position back immediately. It doesn't matter whose wheels were in front. No car was clearly in front hence they were side by side, it was nobody's corner. He could risk a massive accident going into the corner, but he decided not to, and did cut it and completed the overtaking move by doing so.


As for Vettel, he had no reason to leave the track apart from gaining an advantage. He needed to do that to complete the overtaking move. Because he needed to go too fast into a corner to make the pass. Too fast to stay on the track. But he wasn't in danger of collision like Button or Buemi, who had been pushed wide right there in T4 by Sutil.

Overtaking, car control and track limits
a) A car alone on the track may use the full width of the said
track, however, as soon as it is caught by a car which is about
to lap it the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first
possible opportunity.
If the driver who has been caught does not seem to make
full use of the rear-view mirrors, flag marshals will display
the waved blue flag to indicate that the faster driver wants to
overtake.
Any driver who appears to ignore the blue flags will be reported
to the Stewards of the meeting.
b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried
out on either the right or the left.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such
more than one change of direction to defend a position,
deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or
any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will
be reported to the stewards of the meeting.
c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of
doubt:
- the white lines defining the track edges are considered to
be part of the track but the kerbs are not, and
- a driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the
car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without
prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this
may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining
any advantage.
d) Repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of
control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the stewards of the meeting and may entail the imposition
of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver
concerned.
e) It is not permitted to drive any car unnecessarily slowly,
erratically or in a manner deemed potentially dangerous to
other drivers at any time.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... 0rouge.pdf

Note, there's nothing about 2 wheels on the track, so DC was talking out of his back side there on BBC.

So for all intents and purposes, the pass was over and done with by the time he left the exit.

Using this logic you can miss your braking point in T1 at Monza overtake in the braking zone getting it 'over and done with' before the chicane and drive straight towards Curva Grande completely missing the chicane without even slowing down!

[Tamburello]

No driver in hell would think about giving the position back in Vettel's incident and not many stewards would require him to do so either.

At to Button/Massa incident, well they were hoping against hope to get away with it. Avoiding a crash is one thing, keeping the place after a massive shortcut another.

[Tamburello]

Using this logic you can miss your braking point in T1 at Monza overtake in the braking zone getting it 'over and done with' before the chicane and drive straight towards Curva Grande completely missing the chicane without even slowing down!

Not the same logic. Vettel didn't miss any turns on the circuit, he went wide on turn 4 and rejoined the circuit before going through turn 5, all the while being ahead of the car he's fighting with. Button didn't go through turn 9 at all and what you are suggesting in your scenario is a car missing a set of turns.

[Pandamasque]

What is this rule about missing turns? Are you just making it up as you go along?
Back your arguments as I backed mine or stop talking bull ---.

[Tamburello]

What is this rule about missing turns? Are you just making it up as you go along?
Back your arguments as I backed mine or stop talking bull ---.

Forget about rules for a second. You were talking about a certain logic and I was responding to that, clarifying it for you since you don't seem to understand it.

Apropos to that, ask yourself why Button didn't report Vettel to the stewards if he felt the kid got an unfair advantage? You can be sure it's probably got to do with a certain logic and not because he's a kindhearted fellow.

[myurr]

There is no rule whatsoever that allows a driver to leave the circuit as long as it's on the outside of a turn. Take turn 1 in Spa, for example, where the stewards specifically warned the drivers NOT to do that last year. The rules were strengthened this year specifically to make sure that drivers didn't do that.

Vettel would not have made the overtake had he tried to make the corner. As your pictures show he carried a lot more speed into the corner which is why he pulled ahead and why he went wide at the turn. If he hadn't carried that extra speed and had made the turn then he wouldn't have made the overtake.

[myurr]

Yes. AFAIK an outside pass, even if off track, is accepted, while an inside corner cutting pass is not.

Nope it's not accepted - the rules are explicit and the FIA was supposed to be clamping down on this type of thing this year.

Apropos to that, ask yourself why Button didn't report Vettel to the stewards if he felt the kid got an unfair advantage? You can be sure it's probably got to do with a certain logic and not because he's a kindhearted fellow.

We don't know if McLaren complained or not. They could have been on the radio to race control and the stewards may have looked at it.

[Tamburello]

We know that nothing came of it. Of course, there's a possibility that the stewards could be showing favoritism at this stage.

I for one am glad they're not going so far with the policing...

[Tamburello]

BTW, a strict reading of 2c of the above appendix to the rules doesn't call for Vettel to give back the place. All it says for him is to rejoin the track "when it is safe to do so...", given that he was well in front of Button at that stage, he did rejoin the track when it was quite safe to do so.

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

There is also a rule that gives the race director the power to overrule any rule regarding the boundaries of the or a circuit. Apparently it was agreed that the exit of turn 4 you are allowed to leave the track (just as it was agreed to sometimes use the outside of the line at la source at Spa). Case closed.