F1 manual gearbox operation circa 1991

[gold333]

Hi guys,

We are busy working on building the world's first 1991 F1 simulation software. (the reason for choosing that year is that it was the last year that F1 cars were using predominantly manual gearboxes and passive suspension).

I'm a part of the team doing the research.

We are stuck on the types of gearbox used (synchromesh, dog, half-dog, spur, helical).

The only visual driving information we have are these 2 footwell video's from Katayama driving a manual Tyrell 021 in '93

One slow lap where he uses the clutch almost everywhere:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgB4a2eN ... e=r­elated

and one insane qualifying run where he sporadically uses it, predominantly on upshifts(?), and once on downshift entering spoon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf7ogFFJ ... e=r­elated


His feet are tapdancing away on those pedals like there is no tomorrow.



You see in building an accurate gearbox for the simulator we can alter values such as:

-If you clutch past x% the gear will always engage (not sure if that is correct but that is the current mode).

-If you do NOT clutch past x% then the gear will only engage if the difference in speeds of gears is less than y%.

These two effects are computed independently, x is customisable generally or by car, y is customisable generally or by car and can be different for upshifts or downshifts.



Is there anyone here who has driven a manual F1 car in anger or knows about its gearbox operation who might be able to answer the practical questions below?

What would practically happen / what would you experience in the examples below for a circa 1991 manual F1 car. I understand that it is unlikely that there is someone knowledgeable enough to answer them all, so even if you know a tiny snippet of info on a particular question if would help us tremendously.




Upshifting

1. a. (Fast Clutch) If you just do a normal upshift, dip the clutch very fast while lifting the throttle it will just shift up I presume. Can anything go wrong with an upshift if you use the clutch like this?

1. b. (Fast No Clutch) What about when you do a fast upshift not using the clutch? If you just quickly lift slightly / or fully off the gas and engage the higher gear. What could go wrong, or will it be 95% foolproof? Does it depend how much you lift off the gas?

1. c. (Slow Clutch) What would happen practically if you upshift like in a roadcar. Lift off the throttle slowly, press the clutch slowly, (revs drop), engage the higher gear. Let clutch out slowly.

1. d. (Slow No Clutch) What if you do this upshift (again) slowly without using the clutch but by trying to match rpm's while in neutral (like you can in a family car)? I.e. hold stable medium rpm so you can ease into neutral, then hold slighly lower rpm until the sweetspot so it gently slots into the higher gear.


Downshifting

2. a. (Fast Clutch blip) If you just do a normal fast downshift, press the clutch fully very fast while braking, heel and toe so you hear the engine (to an unspecified rpm), engage the lower gear and release the clutch. Can anything go wrong with a downshift if you use the clutch like this?

2. b. (Fast Clutch no blip) What would happen in the above example if you did not blip the throttle, but tried to engage the lower gear and released the clutch pedal quickly without the "heel"

2. c. (Fast No Clutch blip) What about when you fast downshift without using the clutch (like in the Katayama video)? If you just do a fast clutchless downshift, while braking, heel and toe so you hear the engine (to an unspecified rpm) and engage the lower gear. Can anything go wrong with a downshift like this? Does the "heel" rpm rise matter in terms of rpm?

2. d. (Fast No Clutch No blip) What would happen in the above example if you did not blip the throttle, but tried to engage the lower gear quickly without using the clutch and without blipping. Ok this is probably the stupidest one. What would happen is probably the same as in your family car.

2. e. (Slow Clutch blip) What would happen practically if you downshift like in a roadcar. Lift off slowly, press the clutch slowly, (revs drop), heel to increase rpm, engage the lower gear. Let clutch out slowly?

2. f. (Slow Clutch no blip) What would happen practically if you downshift like in a roadcar. Lift off slowly, press the clutch slowly, (revs drop), no heel to raise rpm, engage the lower gear. Let clutch out slowly?

2. g. (Slow No Clutch blip) What if you do a downshift slowly without using the clutch but by trying to match rpm's while in neutral (like you can in a family car)? I.e. hold stable medium rpm so you can ease into neutral, then hold slighly higher rpm stable until the sweetspot so it gently slots into the lower gear.

2. h. (Slow No Clutch no blip) Ok this one is again stupid.

Thanks again for reading all that guys! If there is any place on the internet that has info on this it is here.

[Richard]

I think autogryo has experience of developing boxes from that era.

[mep]

Hi

I dont really got what kind of simulation you want to create. Can you go a bit more in detail on that part? I mean is it going to be something like a computer game? How many people are in your team?


Regarding your question.
Some of them might be answered by watching these videos. Also you can try out your stuff with your family car (as you say).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcxHi6Fl ... ure=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLw0hAtO ... rofilepage

Having some design details of the F1 gearboxes will also help. Maybe you can get some as 1991 is quite some time ago now.

@richard _leeds:
as far as I know did some mods remove the rights of autogyro to writte in this forum. The poor guy can just writte in off topic chat.

[Richard]

gold333 - send a PM to auotgyro

mep - Your "poor chap" comment indicates that perhaps you should ask the mods about changing that status? I have.

[Ciro Pabón]

Me too. I'll do it again... in case. No wonder I haven't seen his posts lately. C'mon, guys, won't you do the same? In variety is pleasure.

[gold333]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Hi

I dont really got what kind of simulation you want to create. Can you go a bit more in detail on that part? I mean is it going to be something like a computer game? How many people are in your team?

Sure I can provide all the detail you want on it

-We are working in an international team (US, UK, Europe, etc) about 15-20 people.

-We are not making a "game" or a product for mass market production.

-We are making a simulation or mod.

-You can run it on any PC with a wheel (and if you choose to run it in authentic detail, you will need a clutch and 6 speed shifter, about $150 from logitech)

-It features authentic physics and authentic sounds of every car from 1991

-It features all models of cars from 1991 (inc. for example the 6 different engine specifications of the RA121E and chassis models of the MP4/6, just to mention McLaren)

-The research used are a variety of publications from the era (autosport, motorsport, Heinz Pruller, Autocourse, etc)

-The real F1 teams are being contacted to provide data.

-It has been tested by real F1 drivers who raced in 1991 (Mark Blundell for example has been testing) and we are trying to contact other drivers (Eric van de Poele, various others, etc)

-The way we are simulating the gearbox is similar to the way we simulate the entire physics, from "porpoising" of the early 90's F1 cars down to the correct use of the bump stops in setups, or down to the fact that the McLaren was 13kg lighter in Hungary specification as opposed to the previous race, just as an example of the detail.

-The gear box is simulated as e.g. position of the clutch (%) to allow for a successful change, delta or difference between rotational speeds of the gears and axle to allow for succesful change or misshift, max and min rpm difference to allow for or refuse a shift, etc.

-Our aim is developing the software to be 100% accurate, the hardware depends on your budget. For a $150 g27 the gear will simply not engage when you slot in a missed gear change, the stick will shift but the car will be in neutral and you wil hear grinding, if you have a $20,000 simconmotion the gear will physically not engage and you will feel the grinding. Up to your budget really, our aim is to get the software right. Hardware is up to you.

-Our aim is to get a very correct simulation of the cars and the tracks (2 tracks are already finished to -exacting- 1991 specification, down to the kerbs.)

-Our aim is to then plug in actual setup data (received from teams) of Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Jean Alesi, Michael Schumacher, etc, so that we can distil or extrapolate and really feel what the driving preference of these gods was like. By actually feeling their setup while physically driving the car we can understand where their specific talents lied. To our knowledge this has never been done before.

-Best of all: It is made by enthousiasts and will not be for "sale" it will be freely downloadable by everyone interested.

[mep]

@richard_leeds & Ciro Pabon
I also wrote a message to Tomba now. Autogyro made some desperate attempts so communicate with the others.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9704
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9501



@gold333
Sounds very good what you are going to do. It’s very nice to see you found so many people who like to do this. When do you think is the simulation finished? Will you also allow keyboard steering? Sorry I know that’s now what you want to do but some guys don’t have a steering wheel.
Did the videos help you or do you still have some questions? If yes someone can go a bit more into detail.

[PNSD]

May I ask what engine this simulation/mod will be based on?

All sounds pretty impressive though, so well done !

[Jersey Tom]

Ok, let's assume you have all this K&C, shock, etc data quite accurate.

What are you doing for tire data? Going to be very expensive to acquire, and without it... no point in all the detail everywhere else.

[gold333]

@gold333
Sounds very good what you are going to do. It’s very nice to see you found so many people who like to do this. When do you think is the simulation finished? Will you also allow keyboard steering? Sorry I know that’s now what you want to do but some guys don’t have a steering wheel.
Did the videos help you or do you still have some questions? If yes someone can go a bit more into detail.

Thanks The first version of the mod is actually finished already. Compared to the one we are working on it is more of a proof of concept. But a video of for example a 1991 Ferrari V12 simulated in the mod can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHD6Y-L22Ww

This version (featuring all the teams, cars, model and engine iterations) is available to download right now. Just do a search on F1SR 1991 HE.

We are working now on version 2. This will feature more detail, for example making sure the time you needed to release the throttle pedal that was needed in the Ferrari example above when changing gears (even though it was a semi auto car!) is accurate.

As for a keyboard, for just running it simply you could map the controls to a keyboard to run as a graphics demonstration, you could actually drive simple laps like this. But obviously to run it like intended you really need a wheel, pedal set with clutch and H-shifter.

But on a personal note if you are interested in racing simulation experiences a wheel, pedalset with clutch and a gated H-shifter are invaluable and only around $100 now (like the G27 from logitech which has all of the above). It really is no money because it is a one time purchase.

I have not checked your vids yet! Will do so asap!

May I ask what engine this simulation/mod will be based on?

All sounds pretty impressive though, so well done !

Thanks

The project itself will be scalable to future applications. Right now it uses rFactor as the engine, when rFactor2 comes out it will easily be portable to that (much better graphics, etc.)

The "code" of the sim is irrespective of the generation of the racing software which houses/enables it (like rFactor). That is why we are trying to get it perfect, this is (and probably will remain) the only detailed simulation of the last year of manual gearboxes in F1, ever.

Ok, let's assume you have all this K&C, shock, etc data quite accurate.

What are you doing for tire data? Going to be very expensive to acquire, and without it... no point in all the detail everywhere else.

Yes we have data down to things like even the dry and wet sump weights of gearboxes and suspension geometries of the different cars (these all contribute to the unique handling of every car).

The tire data we have comes from Goodyear and Avon tires. Avon is the brand which makes "old style" wide F1 slicks that existed upto 1992 in the present day (Goodyear no longer manufactures them). We also correlate data from many different publications. We know for example that a Goodyear qualifying tyre in 1991 on one instance could not complete a single flying lap by Gerhard Berger because he had overused them on his outlap, and also that the same compound of qualifying rubber lasted 17 laps in testing when Boutsen ran in a Ligier JS35B. Tire data, fuel usage, mixture levels, etc we are doing our best and literally going through thousands of pages of publications to get them 100%.

Now we need your help on the gearboxes!

[Jersey Tom]

So Avon have provided you with F&M data for their 245/640 R13 and 370/660 R13 radial tires, then?

I know Goodyear hasn't supplied that data... unless it was within the past month or two.

[gold333]

So Avon have provided you with F&M data for their 245/640 R13 and 370/660 R13 radial tires, then?

I know Goodyear hasn't supplied that data... unless it was within the past month or two.

From your post I get the impression that you disagree with what we are trying to do? But I don't understand the source of your criticism?

From what I know yes, tire load sensitivity and slip ratio ranges are largely based on real data from Goodyear and Avon tires. This data has been used in the first version of this sim and more data is being gathered for the 2nd version we are working on at the moment.

I am a technical researcher for primarily the gearboxes, not the tyres. The team contains over 15 people remember.

In my research primarily I have contacted gearbox experts on this thread:

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?s ... 7006&st=40

and am receiving information from William Hewland himself (of Hewland engineering the maker of some gearboxes in 1991 F1) on the gearboxes used. I know that people researching the tyres, grip coefficients, construction, load rates, slip ratio ranges, compound and wear rates are similarly thorough. I am hoping that this board can also provide advice and help.

However, in rereading this thread I notice that you have provided no help at all but only criticism, but I don't know why?

While I understand and respect the rights of businesses to protect their intellectual rights, this is an enthousiasts project that is non-profit and freely available to be used by everyone.

In anycase, the tire data we seek is 20 years old. I cannot imagine it is classified. If so this would indicate Goodyear racing tires have not improved much in 20 years.

[Jersey Tom]

Not being a critic, just asking questions. I mention the Goodyear thing as up until recently I worked at Goodyear Racing, in the area of F&M data, and do not recall hearing of any data requests of this nature (not that the data necessarily exists anyway). I am aware there is some very brief bit of data in RCVD.

Just asking if you had actually received that data directly from Avon. Can't imagine there's extensive data available, even from them. But who knows.

Ultimately I'm just skeptical of everything - but it's my job to be. IMO, the tire model in rFactor is fairly poor. Even if you had a heap of good data I can't see how you'd make it into something reasonable given that limitation. From what little I've seen, it looks like rFactor 2 may have something more powerful, but still will be up to someone to make something meaningful of it.

I do think it's a cool thing to work on, and that era of car is one of my favorites - overshadowed only by the big turbo cars of the late 80's.

[RH1300S]

I have just watched a few of your videos - sensational sounds and appearance. This really looks like a heck of a good mod, congratulations you have a talented team of guys there.

Almost wishing I still ran computer games still..........this one would suck me right in, fantastic choice of era.

[RH1300S]

I think autogryo has experience of developing boxes from that era.

I think Gold already found him safe and sound on the Autosport forum

IMHO - you will get a lot of good info from Autogyro (Gerrard??)

He mentions 'feel' a lot in his posts, I think he is onto something with this. I have no experience of racing gearboxes, just standard road car gearboxes and motorbike gearboxes. On a road car I often change gear without a clutch (MUCH slower than a racing 'box would allow) and it is probably more than 90% feel at the lever to get it right. This important feedback will be missing for some (most) users of your sim, but that's no reason not to try. Perhaps for people with a normal gamers 'H' shift you will need to give them a slightly larger window for error, otherwise the skill level required may even be higher than doing the real thing?

Would the Logitech of similar gate shifter stand up to the rigours of changing gear at the speed you will need to make this accurate?