Bahrain GP situation: postponed, reinstated, cancelled

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Myurr
The internet is awash with verifiable evidence...but in the mean time read the wiki page and also the videos on Liveleak.com both are verified by people and participants on the ground. (check the footnote on the wiki page)
And before this descendes in to a wiki bashing thread, check the footnotes people. That is the source of the information and not wikipedia.

More than 3 people died due to the uprising, this was one flashpoint but there were others involving mourners at a funeral where 6 were shot dead, including a little girl whos body was riddled with bullets.

These are not the actions of mistaken shots or a rogue bullet. A point was to be made for the uprising to be nipped in the bud.............

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Campaign group Avaaz's executive director Ricken Patel was highly critical of the FIA report, however, warning that the sport's reputation will be "forever tarnished" if the race goes ahead.

"Reading the FIA's Bahrain report is like stepping into the Twilight Zone. While FIA's sham report says that no human rights have been violated, at least 31 Bahrain citizens have been killed and hundreds more tortured and imprisoned.
Formula 1 based their decision to race in Bahrain on this dangerously irresponsible report, a decision now universally opposed by the F1 teams.
Formula 1 must pull out of Bahrain immediately or have their reputation forever tarnished."

The statement added that Gracia "did not confer with credible human rights groups, and did not talk with injured people, torture victims, or families of the people who have died."

This after Gracia had this to say of the place.

I can only speak about what I saw and that was complete quietness. I had official visits and interviews, but I also walked down the street and I was in shopping centres, always with a feeling of complete normality. There were people shopping or working. Nothing that caught my attention. What I found was an open government that offers the opposition the chance to speak."

[andrew]

Giblet - you are missing the point I have been making.

So far we only know the perspective of the protestors. We do not know the perspective of the government or the military. As such an accurate conclusion cannot be drawn.

Do you know for a fact that all the protestors were unarmed or was there a more extreme militant element that caused a --- storm? There is always a reason why violence breaks out, no matter how heinous the crimes committed and no matter how flimsy the reason.

Sure there are people being shot, that is undeniable, but again I make the point of asking why. Why did the military open fire? What provoked them? This has not been answered by anyone, but if you have an answer to this I welcome it.

You are ignoring the fact that there is always 2 sides to every story, this is exactly why I want to hear from the governments stance. I suspect I won’t like the government’s side as much as the next person, but I still want to hear it.

I think we are singing from the same hymn page on this one only I am looking for the reason why.

I know how the protests started, but what I want to understand is how these peaceful demonstrations escalated to mass murder. What triggered this? Did the government/military just say “sod it”? Were the protestors warned or did the military just blindly open fire? Basically, who threw the first punch?

My heart says condemn the government/military as killing is always the last resort born out of desperation, but then my head takes over and says to question why things got to be so bad in Bahrain. This leaves me in the position of sitting on the fence. Going by the tone of this thread and the heated debate it is a barbed wire fence - ouch!

JET - I don’t dismiss anything at all. However, it is true that the mass media has been very much from the perspective of the protestors. I don’t know if this is pure media bias or down to lack of comment(s) from the government. For this reason I keep an open mind. Read what I wrote above and you will see where I am coming from. As I said, we are on the same page, I just want to find out why things have escalated this far.

Incidentally, MrE has confirmed that the race will not happen. However, the reason the proposed timing and the logistics involved. As for the race, well if that is what has been decided then that has what has been decided. No amount of hyperbole from us will change things. I accept the decision for the reasons given and am glad that F1 is not latching onto the human rights argument as this leaves them in an awkward position and brings us back to the whole “where do you draw the line” issue.

[myurr]

Myurr
The internet is awash with verifiable evidence...but in the mean time read the wiki page and also the videos on Liveleak.com both are verified by people and participants on the ground. (check the footnote on the wiki page)
And before this descendes in to a wiki bashing thread, check the footnotes people. That is the source of the information and not wikipedia.

More than 3 people died due to the uprising, this was one flashpoint but there were others involving mourners at a funeral where 6 were shot dead, including a little girl whos body was riddled with bullets.

You were commenting on that particular video, so if there were more injured as a result of that specific incident then present your evidence for claiming so.

According to wikipedia the maximum number of people that have died on any single day during the protests was 4 - so how were 6 shot dead at a funeral?

The government also claims 4 police officers were murdered and nearly 200 injured by violent protestors, and have produced pictures of protestors carrying guns and machettes. Is this all a load of crap too? Why is their evidence invalid but the evidence presented by the protestors treated as gospel?

These are not the actions of mistaken shots or a rogue bullet. A point was to be made for the uprising to be nipped in the bud.............

I never claimed all the incidents were. However I do claim that not all the incidents were as one sided as a lot of people on here have claimed; that the police and army were probably reacting in the way they did in most of the incidents, at least in part, due to fear; that the events have been heavily misreported by a biased and openly manipulative media; that we are guilty of judging a non-western country with western values; and that the whole subject is not clear cut, black and white, 100% the governments fault. I also believe that the overall response and a couple of specific events were gross overreactions and very badly handled by the armed forces; that F1 should not be morally judging host countries; that F1 being held in these countries helps bridge gaps and westernise those countries over time; that many other host countries have far worse human rights records than Bahrain; and that many of the fans who have been arguing that the protestors were 100% innocent and that the race should be cancelled because of moral objects are reacting emotionally rather than logically.

You have not present me with any evidence that any of this is not the case, nor have you given reasoned and fair argument as to why that may be so.

[Richard]

That Avaaz comment is aimed at stirring up a particular viewpoint just like the FIA report was about saving face.

I'm sure an F1 fan could walk the tourist and business parts of Bahrain without fear, so Garcia was valid in that observation. I'm also sure that dissidents live in fear and Shia minority areas have an intimidating security presence. I'm also sure there will be further unrest that would spread to the tourist and business areas given a suitable catalyst.

Thankfully logistics saved the day.

[PlatinumZealot]

woah! Bahrain isn't Saudi Arabia. You can drink alcohol, there are not laws against homosexuality, and the death penalty was last used in mid 90's and 2007.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Bahrain
http://ozsteve1.tripod.com/Living%20in%20Bahrain.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ap ... protesters


Also, the original race was cancelled due to the disturbances, they were not normal.

Never mind. I tried to pull a "fast one" on yer.

[Richard]

Never mind. I tried to pull a "fast one" on yer.

Going for an opportunity that wasn't there.

For some reason my eyes are drawn to your avatar ....

[Giblet]

Andrew, without being as diluted as I was before in my point, the Bahrain government has been telling the world everything was fine. At this juncture we know for a fact this to be untrue. There was serious issues going on. Many say they are still going on, as the doctors and nurses who treated the wounded/dead and spoke of it have been in prison since March now.

The Bahrain government lied to the world, so why would you wait to see hear their side of the story when thy have proven to be liars?

[Hangaku]

Not sure if this is linked already, but here it is anyway:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/57379543/FIA- ... eport-FULL

[Hangaku]

And my take on the report:

Carlos Gracia was paid to ensure Bahrain got back on the calendar.

In what other way could it be so inaccurate?

[Ciro Pabón]

Inaccurate in what?

He denies the reports of employees being fired because of religious reasons, that undermines my position in this thread.

I have to accept that even if I still think that it's a mistake to support certain regimes as the problems FIA has had in the last years show, then, for example, the French GP should be stopped every time there are disturbances in France. And in France there have been many during the last years.

Remember, again for example, that in 2005 there were almost 9000 cars burnt and several people dead (although the police is not as stupid as the one they have in Bahrain there were hundreds of people injured and three persons were electrocuted after chased by the police into an electric substation). In 2007 and 2009 the same thing happened, didn't it?

After that letter, FIA has no choices. They have a contract, I guess they have to honor it.

The wrong thing FIA did was signing that contract, with what I would call a dictatorship, but that's a different problem, generalized across the current calendar.

Anyway, I won't see this GP, specially because it is the last one. Besides I guess there will be no need to watch it to find out who's this year champion.

I'd say this thread is over. The Saudis have won, according to this report.

[rfs]

The last race? There are (provisionally) three more races after Bahrain.

[Ciro Pabón]

The last race? There are (provisionally) three more races after Bahrain.

Well, thanks, rfs, my mistake. It seems I'm unable to get one thing right in this thread.

[Richard]

And my take on the report:

Carlos Gracia was paid to ensure Bahrain got back on the calendar.

In what other way could it be so inaccurate?

Discussed a pages page, here's a link

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10154&start=180

[lebesset]

is there such a word as unreinstated ?