Which also begs the question "how can we make sure that he knows the other driver is there?" ... We have the technology to supplement or supplant existing mirrors, so why don't we use it and erase that ambiguity? That way, there can be no doubt and no excuses.Beeslebob wrote: it's not really just about "does driver x know driver y is there", but "should driver x know driver y is there"
Something went over the edge? I thought this discussion had broken down into a collection of very technical points, this is excellent, exactly what this board is about.strad wrote:Does evwery discussion have to go crazy over the edge?
As we're slowly working through, the rules don't encode anything about owning corners or owning lines. They encode that you don't crash into people when you can avoid it. We're now working through the possibilities for if and when you can/could/should/would avoid hitting someone in a structured form, rather than simply yelling about who owns lines.We all know what an overlap is and we KNOW that when you have enough of an overlap, this is traditionally when you own the corner or line.
Yes I have, why is this relevant anyway though? People who have not raced are still entirely capable of understanding how grip works, how sight works, what you can do to avoid accidents, are these people not entitled to make rational arguments?Have you never raced?
It doesn't matter who is ahead.beelsebob wrote: Slightly different scenario in the same corner, car A is now drifting (in a rather exaggerated way for an F1 car) as you suggest, which car is ahead?
Well it's fair if your opponent can stay on track.richard_leeds wrote:lebesset - I was trying to set out how the scenario could be assessed in the context of ringo's proposal.
If ringo's proposition of "take away your opponent's freedom to make his move" causes your opponent to go into the barrier, then is that a fair move?
Note that there is a "if" in that question!
to be fair to modern drivers jackie is talking about totally different times ; in those days if you had a collision you stood a good chance of getting yourself killed ; if you wanted to become a great driver you had to survive ergo great drivers had few collisionsvall wrote:I listened to JS comments. They all made sense to me. He was right that most great F1 drivers had very few collisions with other drivers. And also that you should take into account whom you are attacking and anticipate troubles before they hit you.
Another interesting thing they discussed is the abuse of the run-off areas. In old times drivers could not do that because if you go off track you die. Now they have these nice safe run off areas and many abuse them by trying overtakea, etc, that would normally not work. If something goes wrong, you just take the escape route. Run-off are if you have technical failure, make mistake, ect. not trying wild things.
Alonso wasn't allowed to do that – luckily, it turned out that Vettel went rallying even though there was still room on track in that instance.Redmondo wrote:Well I think Vettel's move on Alonso at Monza was close to the pinnacle of racing. Alonso clearly showed the move wasn't for the faint of heart and Vettel was up to the challenge. He dared to take the outside around Curva Grande, had the option to back down but chose not to, and pulled off an excellent move. If Alonso were not allowed to push him off the track we would have been robbed of the chance to see Vettel's true grit.
yup, Fred is one of the cleanest drivers out there. He is tough but never behaves like jerk on the track.raymondu999 wrote:Actually beelsebob Alonso left half a car's width on his left in Grande; intending to force Vettel on the inside of Grande; outside of de la Roggia. But Vettel took that half car's width, and when Alonso saw him there Alonso moved to the right to give Seb more room
Agreed that it's a simple matter of respect and fair play. I'm not sure I agree with the latter sentiment though. I can think of only 1 or 2 drivers that plays really dirty.strad wrote:It really boils down to the fact that Senna and Schumacher changed the game.
Do you really think it was so easy back in the day?
Right up front, check out the mirrors. In Jackies day they were so small and just a buzzing blur...Watch in the onboard camera work today, they are steady and you can actually see in them.
It's is simply a matter of respect and fair play,,,something long gone in this world and especially in racing.
