Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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the simple equation of more is better does not really prove anything.Undoubtedly the mac was the quickest car at the start of the season and it is still damn near as quick as anything out there .
I fail to see why the few mm should change the amount of air available to the rear of the car massively .There is more to it than raising the nose .I´m pretty sure the highest noses in -F1 never reaslly where the dominant ones performancewise-because the compromise to be struck was just too much (eg stiffness issues due to keels).

Owen.C93
Owen.C93
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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You don't deserve a job at McLaren for pointing out it had a lower nose than everyone else and that means less flow to the floor. It's common sense. They gain in suspension geometry which is very important this year. What was stupid of Gary Anderson to say was when he implied they will hit a wall of development because of it. I haven't seen a single development this season which can be attributed to a higher nose because most things have been wings, exhausts and sidepod tweaks.
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wesley123
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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The comparisions shown by Nick arent correct either.

The McLaren tub is close to max height and smoothly drops down, it isnt at the 550mm as his drawings show.

The nose of the McLaren itself also seems to be even higher compared to other cars in the field, they are only missing out a few cm's in tub height at the front bulkhead, nothing large to gain, certainly not with the improvement the McLaren has in CoG and suspension geometry because of this
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N12ck
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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wesley123 wrote:The comparisions shown by Nick arent correct either.

The McLaren tub is close to max height and smoothly drops down, it isnt at the 550mm as his drawings show.

The nose of the McLaren itself also seems to be even higher compared to other cars in the field, they are only missing out a few cm's in tub height at the front bulkhead, nothing large to gain, certainly not with the improvement the McLaren has in CoG and suspension geometry because of this
I just showed the max it could be taken to
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Owen.C93
Owen.C93
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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wesley123 wrote: certainly not with the improvement the McLaren has in CoG and suspension geometry because of this
You can't say that for sure.
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amc
amc
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Conscious of previous poor starts to the season, since 2009 really, Mclaren have designed a conservative car. Everything that they have on the car works as they expect it to - when did they last use flow-vis? They had the fastest car in the pack until Bahrain, and could have had a significant lead in both championships at that stage if not for operational errors.

They do not want to change to a Red Bull or Ferrari exhaust (by far the most effective on the grid) for fear of going backwards, through lack of consistency. It also won't work with their undercut, front wing or rear suspension. They won't change the nose whatever 'sources' say - that is simply not viable or necessary. It qualified 1-2 in Melbourne, remember? The nose isn't slowing them down. I accept it may make a difference but not one worth changing.

I think the constructors is gone to RB now, and JB cannot win the WDC. Mclaren should accept this, take the step back and introduce a Ferrari style exhaust at Hungary. They then have the summer break to fix the undercut and suspension (and potentially fw) to make it work for the second half of the year and get some reasonable data for the next year, where I expect nose regs mandating a Macca style nose but not much else will change.
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kalinka
kalinka
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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What about Helmholz exhaust? Do you think it'll be part of the Germany update? It seems that RB does a quite large amount of redesign to accomodate that solution, so it could make the difference. I think so far neither of the Merc-powered teams has that solution, no ? In fact I think it's only Ferrari and RB doing it - which is at least suspicious regarding the result of the British GP...Do you think that Helmholz exhaust was overlooked by McLaren, or the Merc engine has some fundamental charcterstics that prevents them doing it....?

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ringo
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Havent posted in a while, but i saw this coming from the outset.
There's really just 1 best design for each season. The low nose was a no no. Yes the car can be made stronger in other areas to compensate, but what if all teams did the same things?
Well Mclaren are left with an inferior nose, and everyone else has their exhaust, and all the other innovations that have been copied and spread throughout the paddock.
This car is currently slower than a sauber and in a few races it will be slower than the williams.

Now i want to see Mclaren change their chassis to a lotus design. It would greatly improve the car.
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ringo
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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amc wrote:Conscious of previous poor starts to the season, since 2009 really, Mclaren have designed a conservative car. Everything that they have on the car works as they expect it to - when did they last use flow-vis? They had the fastest car in the pack until Bahrain, and could have had a significant lead in both championships at that stage if not for operational errors.

They do not want to change to a Red Bull or Ferrari exhaust (by far the most effective on the grid) for fear of going backwards, through lack of consistency. It also won't work with their undercut, front wing or rear suspension. They won't change the nose whatever 'sources' say - that is simply not viable or necessary. It qualified 1-2 in Melbourne, remember? The nose isn't slowing them down. I accept it may make a difference but not one worth changing.

I think the constructors is gone to RB now, and JB cannot win the WDC. Mclaren should accept this, take the step back and introduce a Ferrari style exhaust at Hungary. They then have the summer break to fix the undercut and suspension (and potentially fw) to make it work for the second half of the year and get some reasonable data for the next year, where I expect nose regs mandating a Macca style nose but not much else will change.
The nose is slowing them down, and im not going off of any journo sensationalism either. It's just the reality. The higher nose is better aerodynamically; this is a fact. All things being equal it is a disadvantage to have a lower nose.
Forget about the exhausts. That's not doing much for the car, as compared to the body of the car itself. The blowing effect is greatly reduced this year. Plus Mclaren's exhuasts are the most stable flow wise.
As the season progresses and the iterations converge, the finer details will be the determining factors of performance.
For Sure!!

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ParanoiD
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010, 17:42

Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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I know that the non-stepped nose will hit its limit somehow and they have to decide whether to switch to stepped nose and explore it (at this time of the season) or stay the way it is and try to find the pace somewhere else. They have to consider their resources as well.

Unless they are quitely have experimenting on it.
Ay Carumba!

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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ringo wrote: The nose is slowing them down, and im not going off of any journo sensationalism either. It's just the reality. The higher nose is better aerodynamically; this is a fact. All things being equal it is a disadvantage to have a lower nose.
That's the point though - all things are not equal. To change to a stepped nose is more than just redesigning the front of the tub to change the bulkhead position; it's about a change in concept of the car. Will the change mean that the exhaust system needs to be reworked? Will it require significant changes to the front wing (one thing the high nose does is change how the air comes off the front wing)? Will it require changes to the floor along the sidepods? Will it require changes to the shape of the sidepod and thus packaging within the sidepod? Will it need changes to the diffuser shape?

If they thought they could do it and make it RB8 quick out of the box then I'm sure they would. But they won't. Even if they can get it out early enough in this season it's going to take several races to understand it and get it working.

I can see them introducing it later in the season as a way of learning for next season, but at the moment it makes no sense to do it.
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Coefficient
Coefficient
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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The car is suffering because their trick floor was taken away. They can't run the same rake they used to as a result and therefore the whole package is compromised. The higher nose would allow them to experiment with more rake again and if they don't try it they might as well resign themselves to having a bad season and start on next years car. The loss of the floor has had a domino effect because they are now struggling to produce enough rear downforce which is having a knock on effect on tyre wear. The extra flow under the car that the higher nose would provide would definately give them something to work with with a view to improving other areas of the car whereas at the moment they've hit a development cul de sac.
"I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it".

Coefficient
Coefficient
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Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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http://www.pitpass.com/46754-Coca-Cola- ... mulls-exit

Anyone fancy doing an artists impression of a Coca Cola livieried MP4 27?
"I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it".

CjC
CjC
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Joined: 03 Jul 2012, 20:13

Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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kalinka wrote:What about Helmholz exhaust? Do you think it'll be part of the Germany update? It seems that RB does a quite large amount of redesign to accomodate that solution, so it could make the difference. I think so far neither of the Merc-powered teams has that solution, no ? In fact I think it's only Ferrari and RB doing it - which is at least suspicious regarding the result of the British GP...Do you think that Helmholz exhaust was overlooked by McLaren, or the Merc engine has some fundamental charcterstics that prevents them doing it....?
What is a Helmholz exhaust? I'd like to see a comparison between the 2 solutions of it'd be possible.

I think the theory about the floor/rake is a good one, they lost some performance from it but mclaren are falling behind on pace race by race.
Just a fan's point of view

Owen.C93
Owen.C93
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Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 17:52

Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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CjC wrote:
kalinka wrote:What about Helmholz exhaust? Do you think it'll be part of the Germany update? It seems that RB does a quite large amount of redesign to accomodate that solution, so it could make the difference. I think so far neither of the Merc-powered teams has that solution, no ? In fact I think it's only Ferrari and RB doing it - which is at least suspicious regarding the result of the British GP...Do you think that Helmholz exhaust was overlooked by McLaren, or the Merc engine has some fundamental charcterstics that prevents them doing it....?
What is a Helmholz exhaust? I'd like to see a comparison between the 2 solutions of it'd be possible.

I think the theory about the floor/rake is a good one, they lost some performance from it but mclaren are falling behind on pace race by race.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12772

I'm not sure why he says that RB did a large redesign for it though.
Motorsport Graduate in search of team experience ;)